What are the primary sources of janitor attrition? Frustration, loss of interest in 4chan, IRL interference? By this I mean either leaving the team, or else steadily increasing inactivity over time.I tentatively invite people to speak both about their own cases as well as what they have observed in others. As I understand it, nobody can see who you are here unless they have admin tools on, so I am confident that nobody will be called to answer before the commissariat for anything they might say.
>>6116My belief is that everyone starts out putting a lot of work into moderating their boards because of a mixture of trying to live up to the "expectations" and the excitement of being a jani on 4chan. As you get more comfortable your activity begins to decrease, as you slowly start to understand that being a jani is your reality you start to lose that initial excitement. When it comes down to it, being a janitor is a job, it's a task (and not one with any pay and little thanks), and most people would rather do what they find fun than a repetitive task.It's important to take a break every now and then and not push yourself to strictly moderate for hours every day or else you will eventually lose all interest.
Well it really depends on the person in my opinion. I get this feeling that I have something of a duty to keep this one board on track as I've seen plenty of threads just fall into a feedback loop of shitposting ruining any actual discussion. I tend to find joy from some of these small things in life and whenever I delete or ban request a true shitposter that I deem absolutely horrendous, I do this thing where I draw my thumb across my throat and say "KO". Plus I heard that we're getting a raise of 1 Hirocoin for our jannitorial work, so that's another plus.
>>6118>I do this thing where I draw my thumb across my throat and say "KO"As for me, I personally don't get tired of this at all (at least, so far). The thought to willfully stop or slow down is in fact bizarre to me; I feel like all of us are needed more than ever and every little thing helps.I also think some people take it for granted that they're here at all, that is, just how lucky they are. You are protecting the smiles of random anons who likely would have been much less happy with this site without you; you're a net force for good in the world. To expand on that, I feel (at least from my own perceptions over time) that the more a user truly values 4chan, probably the more they value the people maintaining it, so it's not just altruism powering such will, but a sense that we're continuing an unconscious symbiosis. I can't really know it, but at least on some boards, it feels very much like the users I like are here in good part because of us - and we're here in good part because of them.
>>6118No pay!
It's because as fundamentally frustrated and annoyed I do get at anons, I'm doing it for their happiness as well.
>tfw just want people to stop being tremendous faggots to eachother and talk about things they enjoyI've seen quite a few burn out due to overwhelming autistic spam on their boards, but it seems most of it becomes IRL stuff or just disinterest in 4chan or even their old hobbies. Then you got shit like the old janiteam leaks that just burns any trust you had in your fellow teammates. Place used to be a bustling fun mini community which some of the newer fresh faces jannies are starting to bring back and that's kinda nice.People just need to not treat janitoring like a primary job and stop getting stressed about it. The board was shit before you got here, and it'll be shit later too, but it's survived this long without you, it'll be fine another 8 hours. Get some sleep.
I rarely get frustrated with users because at the end of the day if we get in a fight it is overwhelmingly likely that I will be the winner. I can camp evaders and warn/ban rule breakers all day and know that I am making 4chan a better place. Being at odds with other staff members sometimes ends up being a larger source of tension, the easiest resolution of which is leaving the conversation or ceasing to care about some part of 4chan.Well, that's what happens when you put more than two individuals in the room.
Janitoring (and moderating) is a volunteer position that requires non-zero effort and occasionally exposes people to some bad stuff they don't want to be seeing.Reasons for attrition go:1. Janitor realizes they have to remove illegal content from 4chan, and they do not want to be seeing this content. This isn't a common reason, but I can imagine it might contribute to some other reasons. "I didn't realize what I'd need to do." 2. Janitor realizes this position requires non-zero effort and are not prepared to commit to a long-term period of effort for >zero compensation. "I've got better things to do."3. Janitor feels that their effort is wasted or unappreciated. Especially true on larger boards that have unrelenting shitposting where you can delete shitposts and ban request people for an hour, leave for half an hour, and then come back to exactly the same stuff you've left. By nature of our positions, we can't talk about what we're doing or why to the posters and 4chan users like to blow things out of proportion. It kind of sucks to be doing something for what you think is a good cause, only to have the people you're trying to help turn around and call you names. "Why am I even doing this thankless repetitive task?"4. People move on from using 4chan. Yes, I know "you're here forever" but believe it or not some people do eventually stop going to and posting on 4chan. A few years is enough to change a lot in a person's life, especially seeing the demographics that 4chan appeals to. If you're a janitor at 20, then you graduate from college and become a wageslave (or get kicked out of your parents' basement), you suddenly find yourself disinterested in what doesn't even qualify as "hot air." "I don't really care about doing this anymore."
My main issue is the relentless shitposting on my board. I can literally spend two hours cleaning and polishing when I get home from work, only to pop down to the local fast food joint and the entire board is back to aids spec again.Aside from that I don't really know, I take breaks, sometimes for a couple of days and then get back into it.
>Delete a bunch of shitpostingMod: "Quit giving me work, faggot."I can only be as motivated as my leadership.
I get unmotivated by straight faced staff who go around deleting good threads with no fighting or stuff I like. People should learn to relax and have fun.Like >>6132 I rarely get frustrated with the userbase. What else would I like this place for?
Some of us have just been here for a long time, and handled our share. The janitor retirement home isn't too bad...
I wouldn't say the moderators are the main cause of 4chan fatigue, it's more like too much focusing on mod channels. I've butted heads with them plenty of times because I keep vainly hoping to push my ideas about how the site should run. There was a point before I came to terms with it where I kept getting frustrated at no one caring about my special opinions and I wanted to quit, but the problem there was just me being too ambitious and trying to do too much with none of the tools or titles. Suddenly having access to the admin's/manager's ear anytime makes a lot of us think we're more important in decision-making than we really are. I know this has unfortunately brought out the government lobbyist in me, and I think a lot of us are guilty of the "if mommy says no, ask daddy" tactics and strategic badgering of mods to get something done. I think jannies with strong opinions tend to burn out quicker because of this. Nobody comes in expecting to be asked for advice, but when a mod replies to you once or twice it can make you feel stone-walled when you get ignored by them later on, and it makes you wonder why you're putting effort in at all.I don't think like this anymore, of course, but there was a point where I was trying to get some policy change i wanted and i wanted to give up on everything.In any case, besides being defeated by one's own hubris, i think the biggest thing is just time allocation. Situations change and suddenly you can't sit at a computer for hours at a time anymore, or maybe someone's looking over your shoulder now.
>>6148Then become a mod (if that's even possible), then maybe you'll have the "authority" to bring about what's in the back of your mind.
>>6148>makes a lot of us think we're more importantSounds like you're just power tripping to be blunt. Don't trip on a hot pocket.I myself have only put a bit of thought into policy specifically because a thread here said "feel free to make suggestions/comments". That's it. If I have some outlandish ideas I've spat out in public I don't intend to be taken seriously, and more like appreciate what-if mental exercises. The modus operandi IMO is that we should be here out of passion for maintaining the site's rules, not trying to change them.
>>6149Not that guy, but I don't think there's a clear path from "Being a Janitor for 1-2 boards" to "Being a Janitor to multiple boards" to "Being a global Janitor" to "Being a Mod". That seems like the obvious progression, but I think that if you're managing "your" queue and not getting a lot of feedback, there isn't really a lot of clarity to how you're doing personally or how you could improve.
>>6151I wish they implemented some kind of system that tracked all of your pending BRs, and then when they're either accepted or denied it automatically informs you, so you know if what you're doing is good or bad.They have internal logs they occasionally review to see if we're doing a good job or not, right? So it probably shouldn't be too hard to implement it.
>>6151Ask me about being janitor for one board for 4 years and ignored whenever I ask for new ones despite constant complaints of "we're understaffed" and "why is nobody handling reports on this huge problem board I don't staff"
>>6152I often wonder how frequently its a matter of "we probably wont implement x new feature because dev time is strained/costly" vs "we dont want/need that".i just have so much love to give lads.
>>6152I think that could cause some confusion. Mods are privy to information we are unaware of that may affect their decision to accept/reject/change a BR.Seeking explanation for why what you think was a legitimate BR was denied would just introduce doubt in your own performance and/or waste mods' time having to clarify.
My boards are pretty low key and well behaved, but once in a while there's a hand full of posters who will start shit ad keep up the shitposting, and flaming, and making things generally unpleasant for the rest of the users.Prime example:I have a thread, 149 posts, 48 different posters. Things are going good.Then 2 (or three) decide it's time to start waving their dicks, and flinging shit at each other.The other posters are telling them to take it elsewhere, but it doesn't happen. They stop posting, then there's 65 posts of shitflinging between these two.I go in and start cleaning up. I leave the first few posts because hell, let them have a brief argument. That's not a big deal. But once they start breaking rule 3, or it turns off-topic, then it's no longer just a simple argument. It's a disruption of a thread that's caused the other 46 posters to desert, and stop posting.So, I'll prune the majority of posts, and BR a few so hopefully the mods will do something to stop this.All I get is:1 Stop making our lives busier2 We don't take sides in arguments3 (and this is the big one) This isn't banable. Stop doing it.My rebuttal to that is, there's an active thread with 46 people being held hostage by 2 cunts who want to prove to the other that their ePeenor is bigger than the other. Why should these two be allowed to do that?What about Rule 3? What about Rule 6? What about being completely off- topic? Why should the vast majority of posters be kept from a decent exchange because of 2 immature people? It's bullshit. Permaban the 2 that are continual causing the problems, and let everybody else continue on like normal. If they evade, ban them again, if they keep it up, range ban them. They aren't helping the board one bit. They're deliberately flaunting the rules, and all the mods (well, certain mods) do is complain about how it's not their jobs to referee, and that I should let it go.
I take my "job" seriously. I am supposed to help deal with crap before it gets out of hand, whether I agree with the topic or not. I see no reason why a large portion of the users should be kept from posting because the very small minority decide to act like assholes.The only other thing that gets to me is the CP.God knows It's part of the job to get rid of it and report it, but shit...I've been visiting /b for years, and thought that I'd seen everything, but once in a while that shit just goes way beyond.Don't get me wrong. I like what I'm doing, and I like my users. All I want is to be of service to them and make their experience here as good as possible. It's just I feel like I'm fighting uphill sometimes.
>>6162I've seen cases like those before, but all I actually do is delete the posts, send a few warnings here and continue to monitor it. If they realize that their post will get deleted within a minute then they'd stop. If they continue I just send a BR to both of them to make them shut up after 15 minutes. I don't count of the mods on these cases cause truth be told you can't really ban someone for getting in a dumb arguement, unless you consider disrupting the peace as rule. It's best to keep it small and to allow the mods to focus on stuff that really matters. When you get people posting "based jannies" and "mods is gods" then I take that as a sign that I'm doing the right thing. As they only ever say that when they appreciate what you're doing. Cause everyone know that mods=fags.
>>6164>If they realize that their post will get deleted within a minute then they'd stopYeah. Unfortunately that doesn't stop them. Would to God that they could look at the event and say "Hey I guess I'm being a dick. Maybe I should stop." But they don't. They keep on and on and on.If they stopped after the first or second hint, then it would be OK. But some of these folks just can't take a simple hint. And I CAN'T just pop in and tell them because I'm supposed to be invisible.>you can't really ban someone for getting in a dumb arguement, I know, but by the time I get involved, it's gone beyond a simple online argument. It's flaming, it's abusive, it's disrupting the flow of the thread. It's something that's making the 4chan experience WORSE. God knows this place has a well deserved reputation. And fuck all, I love it. People CAN speak their mind without fear of stifling. But at some point it steps over the boundary of simple disagreement, into "fuck you my opinion is better than yours, and you suck dick!'' And thus disruption of a thread the majority is trying to communicate in.
>>6162I was with you up until permabans. All that's going to do is encourage evasion, especially over an argument.A day off to cool their asses and get over themselves sure, but a perma? Save that for the spammers and those dedicated shitstirrers that come back day after day.If it's off topic, it's off topic. Usually people getting into a dickwaving contest spanning 50 posts strays pretty far from on topic. Those templates have a set duration on it for a reason.People do get bumped up to a week or longer if they have a ridiculous ban history from what I hear.>>6164>send a few warnings here and continue to monitor itSee if only the warning actually popped up for them like the 15 minute block does pending a ban request, that'd be useful. Right now they see nothing until a mod approves the warning which could be hours past a long done and burnt out argument and then what's even the point.>>6165>If they stopped after the first or second hint, then it would be OK. But some of these folks just can't take a simple hint.Yep
>>6162>My rebuttal to that is, there's an active thread with 46 people being held hostage by 2 cunts who want to prove to the other that their ePeenor is bigger than the other. Why should these two be allowed to do that?If one of them makes a post that is an explicit and blatant violation of the rules*, ban request him. That's a fifteen minute mute. If both of them make posts that explicitly and blatantly violate the rules, ban request them both. That's a fifteen minute mute. The remit of the janitor ends there. "Pruning the majority of posts" because you thought that we should all just hold hands and get along is not part of the rules except in so far as every single post that you deleted was a rule violation. Doing a full wipe of a conversation because you thought some people in a thread were being shitheads is not in your remit unless every single post you deleted consisted of a clear and bannable rule violation.Our two retarded friends will get tired, and they will burn out. If this thread is a rare gem, some sort of highly unique thread, a creative conflux that comes along only once a generation - then yes, it would be fucking tragic if this rare and beautiful opportunity were lost to two people arguing. It's usually not. It's usually X Thread #1479 or some template thread variant thereof. At that point it's probably actually contributing to the diversity of the thread and expanding the circle of possible discussion unless it happens to five or seven threads in a row. As someone who enjoys watching people engage in spirited argument and occasionally chime in with my two cents on a controversial topic, where do I fit into your paradigm of 46 upstanding citizens versus 2 shitheads?
>>6167 cont. (length)These reason people should get to "ruin" threads is that because if some people want to talk and other people don't want to listen, barring exceptional circumstances the people who want to talk should get to talk and the people who don't want to listen need to suck it up. This is not about allowing people to post absolute garbage on 4chan because "it's 4chan" and therefore shit and so we should have no standards. It's about respecting the ability of people to have a spirited debate on 4chan. Fundamentally, whenever people discuss a controversial topic, the conversation will get heated. People are discussing things they care about in a community they care about. Given the realities of 4chan, there will be shitflinging. It's just a fact. If when the shitflinging begins you swoop in and gut the conversation from the top down, in the quest to preserve some sort of "maturity" for a thread or a board, intentionally or unintentionally you create a standard for a thread that a certain argument and naturally by extension certain topics should be off-limits. People begin to self-censor themselves, which is death to the atmosphere that here on 4chan you are free to fearlessly express what you believe. Setting some sort of implied standard that people can only discuss a topic if they do it with solemn dignity is the same thing as banning it on 4chan. It's just not going to happen. Someone will fling shit, and the fire will start. We can't always strike at the first person to degrade the debate. I would much rather put up with these dumpster fires and wait for them to put themselves out as a small price to pay for preserving a free atmosphere. In all my years on 4chan I can think of only three or four topics where discussion was degraded to the point of actual unusability because people never learned to leave shit well enough alone, and all of these cases were driven by notorious dedicated long-term ban evaders.
>>6165>People CAN speak their mind without fear of stifling. But at some point it steps over the boundary of simple disagreement, into "fuck you my opinion is better than yours, and you suck dick!'' And thus disruption of a thread the majority is trying to communicate in.I agree with this in principle. I'm sure that read in the right way, all of us here in this thread can be on the same page when it comes to this statement. But in practice I find that sometimes this is enforced zealously to the point where I feel that it may not necessarily be true. There are many times I have had posts I considered fully on-topic swept away in great arcs of post deletion. When it has happened, it has felt genuinely stifling, and is probably the one thing over the years that has truly made me want to make an exit as a user and as a janitor.I don't know where the statistical spread lies on where we all draw the line on when a discussion crosses over from valid discussion to contentless flaming. I can't safely say "we're too harsh" or "we're too lenient" as a useful statement for 4chan in general because we all have different standards and we all probably draw it in different places, because we are individuals. All I can say is that I have seen a few individual cases where I personally think we have been too harsh here. Your mileage and your mod may vary. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. If a portion of this post is or becomes illegal, invalid or unenforceable in any jurisdiction, that shall not affect the validity of any other portion of this post. All rights reserved.
>>6162This so goddamn much.
>>6166>I was with you up until permabans. >those dedicated shitstirrers that come back day after day.That's the point though. If it were just two users having a bad argument I wouldn't recommend a permaban. These guys are CONSTANTLY doing it. I mean 2 times a week at least. I've seen them get 3 days off because they suddenly stop posting, and as soon as they come back, they pick right up where they left off.That's pretty dedicated in my book.>>6167>because you thought that we should all just hold hands and get alongI don't think that at all. Like I said there's plenty of arguments that I don't worry or care about that I let go on because that's the nature of the beast. We aren't going to hold hands and sing Kumbaya My Lord, and drink a Coke and live in harmony. Differing opinions do fuel conversation. Butting heads is a great way to keep things moving and flowing.But the type of disruption is beyond that. It's not, "I like XYZ and here's why. And you're stupid for not agreeing with me faggot"---"Oh yeah? well you're a moron for liking it, here's why, cuntrag!"The type I'm talking about starts there and immediately goes nuclear after 3 or 4 posts both sides are clearly violating at least 3 rules (off topic, garbage outside of /b/, and quality of posts). Thus deletions and BR's occur.As I've said it's not one or two times. It's a regular occurrence with these 2 (or 3).
>>6170>This is not about allowing people to post absolute garbage on 4chan because "it's 4chan" and therefore shit and so we should have no standardsUnfortunately too many users think that's a perfectly fine way to do things.
Maybe it is just me, but I really wish there was more internal "Promotions" of sorts, or at least informing janitors when there are urgent positions that need to be filled on different boards for janitoring. I am not against having new blood and like a lot of stuff posted in this thread as pointed out, the janitor burnout rate is high. I've had to walk away several times either due to IRL stuff or having to stay away from spoilers on major things. However, I still wish the mods and site leads would let us know before a major hiring spree on what boards need the most attention and if we are interested in keeping a eye on those boards in addition to what we have.
>>6176"We currently have enough volunteers for that board."
>>6151The only way to know how well you perform is to just ask a mod, you'd probably be surprised with their review.
>>6162I think that the higher ups don't expect much of us, in maintaining our assigned boards, maybe they do expect us to burn out and eventually quit that's why they don't give multiple roles for us and just hire a new wave of janiturds. After all, it's kind of a big loss to lose a janiturd handling multiple boards.
I think this thread is a good example that there just isn't enough communication between janitors and mods. And what communication there is, tends to be viewed negatively by many janitors.I said in another thread months ago, when some of the higher ups decided to make a bunch of changes rapidly on a board, that it would've been much more prudent to have talked it out more, and gone at a much slower pace to let the board adapt better. Instead it was a little chaotic, the users resent the janitors for new changes, some janitors resent themselves and become less active, some resent others in the janiteam, there were some arguments, but other than the arguments, there was mostly silence. And a couple of isolated posts on /j/ that never get answered. Maybe one or two janitors talk and agree with eachother on these threads, maybe they just disagree, but that is the extent of the 'communication' we have with eachother.I don't really know how to fix any of these problems, so what can I really do or say here? I don't know. I really wish we were more cohesive and communicated more. I know it's 4chan and people will always disagree and argue but lets not pretend like there isn't work we could all do to try and talk to eachother more and understand. There are things we all don't like about some of our boards or moderation, especially the direction we want our board(s) to go in, but if we could improve our communication with eachother and talk more/start a dialogue, then we could at least all be on the same page when we moderate our boards.
I'm on a slow board so its pretty cozy. i basically just browse the board as i would normally and if I see something that breaks the rules, report it. we don't have that much in the way of spammers and usually one ban takes care of the problem.its just like being on regular 4chan for me but you can ban the people who are breaking the rules so its nice. been at it for only 6 months though maybe it'll wear thin as time goes on
>>6208are you not a janitor? how r u posting?
>>6775It wore thin as time went on.
I can tell you why I keep going, but it's cheesy and simple: I feel honored and I feel like I'm actually usefulwhen I started it was kind of overwhelming, and for a while I had that "the job is never done" feeling set in, now I'm in a good groove where I janitor more days than I don't but not every day and I make a solid effort to get through a good amount of posts but I don't stay up until 3:00 AM clearing my boards or feel bad if I don't clear themOK bad example tonight but I'd be up anyway
>>6162this
>>6775people who used to be janitor/mod/admin but aren't anymore will show up with grayed out name and no tag, i believe
>>6775lurk more newfriend
1) No matter how good/bad job you do you always get the same reward, which is nothing.2) If you do bad you get complains. If you do good you might still get complaints.3) Anon's don't like you or respect your job.4) You cannot establish a dialog with those you are moderating. Can't ask what they want, can't ask to stop certain behaviour. I think this is the worst part and contributes to the us vs them mentality that is pretty much the default state of affairs. This also reminds us what we are, mindless factory line workers.5)
>>6846lol, I saw complaints that I was the cancer killing /some board/ because I deleted an illegal post on a board I don't janny, and I don't think it's common knowledge that I couldn't just delete the thread (not that I would, as I'm not familiar with the board culture anyway)I genuinely don't think most users realise the scale of 4chan, and what this means in terms of reports and how they're handled. I certainly didn't.
>>6847Nice gif.> genuinely don't think most users realise the scale of 4chan, and what this means in terms of reports and how they're handled. I certainly didn't.Yea, I was surprised that even if a post get's 1 report it requires attention, if the people would learn this many would just "report spam", and janitors can't do much to that.
>>6848This. Before I joined the team I literally never reported posts, expect for illegals, which I almost never saw. Now I actually do report on boards I browse but dont janni
>>6116Honestly? My interest in 4chan is a bit of a hit or miss day to day. And while janitoring may seem at first like it would be great, the issue is the state of affairs that is created by the role.First and foremost, we have to stay anonymous. You sit there and you watch a crowd roar and shit about how janitors are scum and all that, and you see its largely based on misinformation or something like that. But you essentially have a gag on, can't say a word to them about what its actually like janitoring. So you watch in horror as it moves on to >he does it for free...But that's just the salt in the wound. The wound being that as a janitor, your bans only keep honest users out. It takes very little effort to evade a ban, and being unable to make an impact for a significant amount of time, makes the whole ordeal worthless.As an experiment, i spent a couple weeks doing nothing on the report queue, after a couple of weeks of being really proactive. At the end of the day, I feel like I'm trying to kayak upstream. I put in a lot of effort, but it seems like I'm going nowhere. So why fight it?
>>6906I think you're right. It can be quite disheartening to BR a prominent shitposter, only to see them openly bragging about ban-evading less than an hour later.
>>6906Personally I find the Jani memes like>Attention ahem... fuck Jannies>He does it for free>Imagine sitting at home deleting posts FOR FREEEtc to all be endearing and it makes me feel like the community is still alive and functional. For most stuff we're the fun-killers to a degree. Deleting nsfw on worksafe boards for example is the rule but it doesn't surprise me in the least when users complain about it because for a lot of the community these rules feel more like guidelines or arbitrary restrictions because for the example of nsfw the train of thought like "who actually expects to be able to browse 4chan in a work safe environment" is a bit of a joke. We have rules against racism and off topic discussion but expecting to cull it in all threads is an impossible battle so anons WILL see it being handled in some cases and not handled in others making it feel like the rule is like I said before arbitrary or more of a guideline.I wouldn't take it personally and I always like to remember that I was a user before I was a jannie, shitposts are part of the reason I like the community, and I wish there was a way to develop a better relationship with the userbase to try and help them understand that I don't think very many people want 4chan to change in any drastic way or that the fun should be culled.>>6116I mostly try and clear and process reports that I know are a waste of time for the mods but I reach some attrition when the report queue starts getting filled with stuff that is kind of beyond my role. I manage /vg/ and I can't make the call whether someone is avatarfagging or not because I can't tell whether its actually the same user or not and even if I could its still a vague judgement call.I just try and clear the report queue for 10 mins or so a couple of times throughout day. I don't babysit it for hours at a time though.
>>6908>I just try and clear the report queue for 10 mins or so a couple of times throughout day. I don't babysit it for hours at a time though.This; I find it helpful to forget there's a report queue for a bit and just use the board the way you did before you were a janny: reading threads, following conversations, keeping up with things. When you inevitably see something rule-breaking, you can deal with it directly instead of reporting it. This avoids that asshole-cop effect where you get tired of your board because you always see the worst of it in the queue. Check the queue every now and then or if the number is really high; sometimes by just browsing the board and removing rule-deleting content, you bring down the queue count before you look.
>>6906>>6908Yeah, I agree. The "does it for free" memes don't bother me (while it gets annoying having to remove large spams of it). But it's more the specific quips and insults. Especially from known ban evaders, after they evade. That gets to me.
>>6907>>6933I like to keep this post https://desuarchive.org/qa/thread/419539/#424619 in mind when it comes to ban evaders. Just a couple mouse clicks and they're gone, whereas they have to take the time to evade, write their (shit)post, and - most importantly - complete the captcha (not including spambots, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). So at the end of the day, they're really primarily wasting their own time.
>>6906>As an experiment, i spent a couple weeks doing nothing on the report queue, after a couple of weeks of being really proactive. At the end of the day, I feel like I'm trying to kayak upstream. I put in a lot of effort, but it seems like I'm going nowhere. So why fight it?This is true (to an extent) but after I thought about it, in my case, not completely. There are some slower boards where janitoring doesn't make a huge visual difference, but on the faster ones, you can tell when a janitor isn't active because it goes to shit quickly. For example /v/, you can easily tell by looking at the catalog when a janitor is active and when one isn't. Before I was a janitor I was able to do this just going on /v/ casually. That board can smell when a janitor hasn't been active in 15 minutes(as can others I'm sure)Maybe for other boards it's not as easy to notice like it is on /v/ though. So I can see how that would be defeating, when you don't see or "feel" drastic improvement in your efforts.Or maybe you meant that even though you see a difference, it all goes to shit when you stop putting in effort (the kayaking upstream example) that makes sense. You stop 'paddling'(janitoring) and you find yourself being swept down shit creek again.I guess I'd rather be up shit creek with a paddle than without one though. If I am going to browse this site I'd rather be a janitor than a regular user so I can at least improve it to some degree.
>>6933>But it's more the specific quips and insults. Especially from known ban evaders, after they evade.Any time you're frustrated when dealing with a ban evader, always remember that even though they think they 'won' because the ban won't stick, it takes them ~30 seconds or more with no internet to grab a new IP and evade. But you literally just press 1 button. You "do it for free" but they're putting in WAY more work than you are to evade
>>6951>they're putting in WAY more work than you are to evadeA lot of the time they aren't. One of my friends for instance back in the day would evade bans easily. He'd have his thread ready to go in his clipboard on his phone, he'd post it, wait for the ban, then he'd just toggle airplane mode, paste and go again. It'd take him less than 5 second to evade a ban, a ban mind you that takes us janitors maybe 2-3 seconds to request, and up to 15-60 minutes to be approved. And usually they'll start evading before the ban is approved just because.I'm not saying that janitors aren't making a difference. I'm saying our efforts at times feel like we're trying to stop a car with no fuel or brakes from rolling down hill just by standing infront of it and pushing against it. The moment we stop to take a break, shit hits the fan like a runaway car plowing into pedestrians and oncoming traffic, and the only way to put a serious impact into the problem would be to either make /g/ cry "STOP LITERALLY BEING THE NAZI NSA" by fingerprinting devices and banning rule breaking devices from said fingerprints, or remove the anonymous aspect of an anonymous image board. Its clear that an IP address is not a reliable way of identifying if 2 people are the same or not. There are edge cases where the IP address belongs to a shared network or household, there are cases where the user gets a new IP address from their ISP every day or some shit, in these cases banning their IP is like a blind man fishing in a lake with a stick of dynamite (that also applies to range bans)TLDR 4chan should really fundamentally change the way users are banned. IP address bans are ineffective, there should be more of an effort to identify devices and issue bans on devices instead of IP addresses.
>>6957>back in the day would evade bans easilyBan evading will always be easy, but the captcha is more annoying now than it was because of Google. They have to take the time to fill out the captcha, post, turn on airplane mode, wait, turn it back off, fill out the captcha again, etc. Ban evaders can be really annoying. But if it gets to the point of being frustrating we'd rather you take a break and just pass off the work to us to handle. >>6906 mentioned putting in a lot of effort and seemingly going nowhere. But we mods do see the effort you guys put in. We'd rather you guys take a break when it's frustrating than get burned out and quit entirely.
>>6958i am >>6906, thought you'd be able to tell on /j/ as a mod but either way...I get that you can see the effort we put in. But we don't get to see the effort we put in. We have to """guess""" what the boards would be like if we didn't delete idealdicksize3.jpg or cheezepizza.webm...I'm not saying that evaders arent putting in more effort, they definitely are. But we're talking 2 seconds to ban vs 5 seconds to evade. If you talk relatively, they are putting in 150% more effort than we are, but they are getting all the joy out of it by being the mouse in this cat and mouse game. We're alwaysactually i stopped caring at this point, but rather than just hitting CTRL+A, Backspace, CTRL+W imma post it.
>>6906>First and foremost, we have to stay anonymous. You sit there and you watch a crowd roar and shit about how janitors are scum and all that, and you see its largely based on misinformation or something like that. But you essentially have a gag on, can't say a word to them about what its actually like janitoring. So you watch in horror as it moves on to >he does it for free...If jannies were allowed to publicly talk about their janny experiences it would just make everything far worse than it already is. You know how people are prone to exaggerating, taking things out of context, arguing in bad faith, screencapping posts to use them as ammunition later, etc. Shitposters would just take anything you say and use it against you. And not just thing you say, but also things you don't say, things they think you might be implying, etc. And even if your personal oratory skills were so great that no one would be able to take your posts against you, you're not the only janny and other jannies might not be so good at communicating. Some other janny might make an unwise statement and shitposters would quickly get a hold of it and use it to add fuel to the fire. It's honestly for the best that jannies are under gag order, in my opinion.
For me it's uni
the best advice i have is that while the report queue is important, it's not all-important. sitting at it all day is a good way to burn yourself out really quickly.if you feel yourself getting burnt out, get out of the report queue and contribute to discussions. i was told when i was brought on originally that contributing good posts is as important if not moreso than janitor duties, plus, one of the benefits of just being out in threads posting is a lot of times you'll catch things before anyone even has to report them.if you notice the queue's getting big and you don't feel like dealing with it, ping your board role and ask if they can help out. you don't have to do everything yourself, you're part of a team, it's ok to rely on them a bit.
For me right now it's /vr/, there's some drama involving a Goemon translation and now shitters are going to be spamming the board asking about the translation and use it as a platform to springboard for offtopic drama shitflinging.Deleting the threads means they can't shitpost, but it also means people are going to be hesitant to talk about this shit. I feel this is a lose-lose situation and I fucking hate it.
I feel like I'm not being listened to for /m/. I know it's a niche board and shitposts can be hard to see for outsiders, but that's why you have janitors in the first place, to be a filter and a guide for the moderation of that board. Also, I really, really hate having to share my robots board with the EVA foam costume guys shows, but I've tried to learn and help those generals the best I can, because that's what I signed up to do, and every niche deserves a nice place to talk about their stuff. However, it seems like half the time, my requests get dismissed due to the obfuscated nature of the shitposting. Even if the guy has been spamming copy-pasted forum posts, or refuses to use the correct thread for his toku show, or /tv/ tier shitposters continue to destroy power rangers threads, etc, asking for custom warnings, wipes, etc isn't always acknowledged, even if mods are online and posting in chat. Should I be pinging online mods every single time for these? Admittedly I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning so don't take too much offense, mods.
>>7315>Should I be pinging online modsyes. it's very likely that your request will get lost in the chat otherwise. it's a lot easier for me to take a look at things if i'm pinged directly. at least start out with the pings, and you can go back to just posting in the channel after you have someone's attention. but these things are easy to miss otherwise>custom warningsthese aren't given out super often. we like to try to stick to the templates whenever possible>spamming copy-pasted forum postsif someone is doing that, then please ping a mod so that they can be wiped. this is not something that's acceptable at all
>>7316Thanks for the fast feedback, I can guess I'm not everyone's favorite janitor but this is helpful.
>>7317You're my favorite janitor- your secret mod admirer
>>7315my recommendation is ping the two most recent mods you saw posting in the channel, if they don't respond in like 5 minutes ping the third, etc
>>7317>I can guess I'm not everyone's favorite janitor but this is helpful.
>>6116Mods bully them too hard.
>>7661just bully them back
>>7661>>7662i am open for bullying
>>7661>>7662Never forget, Mods fear the Janitors.
>>7663Bullying you, or getting bullied?
>>7665
>>7667U do it for freeOH SHIT I GOT U GOOD U FUCKER
>>7668
>>6116love you all
>>7668wow rude
*ahem*
>janny-onii-chan asks about janny attrition>becomes a janny casualtyPotterybros...........
>>7777dumb cirno poster gtfo
>>7777You should be public banned.
I feel /trv/ really needs an overhaul, in terms of rule expectations, features, and enforcement. I've been using /trv/ regularly for almost a decade, and I've noticed a gradual but overt decline in overall thread and post quality since 2016. Far fewer posters seem to actually travel, or even be interested in traveling. Instead, /trv/ is used as an outlet for: >obvious fantasies, such as "how do I walk across America with $10" >sex tourism >overt racism--see any reply to any thread made about India, sub-Saharan Africa, etc I just spent 10 minutes cleaning up an India-related thread that had accumulated nearly 120 posts in a half-day. At least 70% of the posts were anti-India-travel drivel made by the same two users, who were LARPing as different posters. This happens in almost every thread made on "controversial" destinations. I followed several recent /trv/ metathreads wherein many other users identified the same problems as I have. The more popular suggestions for /trv/ include: >reviewing and revamping the sticky, which has not been updated in years>allowing a SINGLE sex tourism "containment" thread and deleting/banning any others which are posted>adding poster IDs a la /biz/ I am in favor of all of these ideas. Not to wax nostalgic, but I really think /trv/ was one of the best boards on the internet; but for those of us who actually want to continue using it for its intended purpose, the quality of the average post is so fucking awful that it's slowly getting unusable.
>>7805>>reviewing and revamping the sticky, which has not been updated in yearswhat would be in the sticky? come up with some preliminary ideas, maybe write something up, and i'll see about soliciting community feedback for a new sticky
>>7806>make the janny do all the work, take all the creditbased. GET TO WORK JANNY
>>7806Can I just create a /trv/ meta to solicit feedback? Someone else made one about four days back, and it was moved to /qa/ and quickly died. To the best of my knowledge, there are a lot of other /trv/fags who feel the same way I do. The entire reason I applied to "do it for free" was to preserve /trv/'s integrity. I, for instance, started using /trv/ in 2012, before I ever went overseas. I've been to about ~50 countries since, and /trv/ really helped me get on my feet and prepare for certain destinations. It fucking sucks to see the shit extent to which things have gone to since. People don't get the same help I used to get, because half the board's been taken over by retarded LARPers who just shit on any destination wherein you can't find Le Caucasian QT Waifu.
>>7808>>7805>the quality of the average post is so fucking awful that it's slowly getting unusable>People don't get the same help I used to get, because half the board's been taken over by retarded LARPers who just shit on any destination wherein you can't find Le Caucasian QT WaifuI think this is just the result of the natural passage of time. There's nothing inherently wrong about most of the things you've brought up except for racism. Which is to say that likely the "post quality" hasn't dropped, your subjective interpretation of what is the "average" post is just anchored on posts from a different decade (t. zoomer).Also, reminder that you're a poster too, there's no reason as to why you're not giving back to the community seeing as you perceive people aren't giving other as much help as others gave you in the past.
>>7809I would ordinarily agree with you, but for the fact that I've gone digging back through the /trv/ archive. The board was much, much slower, but very evidently did a better job chasing off trolls and giving honest advice. For reference, I looked at a half-dozen India threads from the archive's earliest available dates. There was very little of the crap that happens every time users discuss India or other "non-White" destinations nowadays. >There's nothing inherently wrong about most of the things you've brought up except for racismI have been expressly told that sex tourism and bride-hunting does not belong on /trv/. That aside, I don't see how "hey guys should i move to europe" facilitates very useful discussion. It's vague, non-practical, and not suggestive of any intent to leave mummy's basement. I will admit that I may be looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses. However, I am relatively confident--in the case of /trv/--that there is significantly more trolling, racism, and disruptive, thread-derailing banter than there used to be.
>>7810>I am relatively confident--in the case of /trv/--that there is significantly more trolling, racism, and disruptive, thread-derailing banter than there used to be>There was very little of the crap that happens every time users discuss India or other "non-White" destinations nowadaysYou should take into consideration that just in the last 5 years /pol/ has more than tripled in activity, that's something no one can really do anything about besides enforcing the rules.>I have been expressly told that sex tourism and bride-hunting does not belong on /trv/Personally I don't see the issue with sex-tourism, but if that's the case I'll just point out that the Japan General has info on sex-tourism but that's probably not something that's easily addressable by a janny.>"hey guys should i move to europe"This stuff can probably be moved to /adv/. I'd say the same for anything to do with buying property.Reading the rules of the board actually makes me see what you mean though, there's tons of LARPs and people don't even bother to show any intent to travel anywhere because most threads are prefaced as "feels for this location?". I'm however of the opinion that if someone made a thread then for all intents and purposes they most likely do intend to get travel advice (in this case, but this applies to any board/topic) and not just LARP about it.Since you've travelled to a lot of place I would recommend that you make threads about your travels and share pictures to try and counter-act the prevalence of hypothetical travel advice threads.
>>7813>Personally I don't see the issue with sex-tourism, but if that's the case I'll just point out that the Japan General has info on sex-tourism but that's probably not something that's easily addressable by a janny.I could be mistaken--as I haven't asked for a while--but I think I was just told to leave casual sex tourism discussion alone, provided it's in another thread (such as a Japan or Thailand general). Really don't think there's much that can be done about it. >Since you've travelled to a lot of place I would recommend that you make threads about your travels and share pictures to try and counter-act the prevalence of hypothetical travel advice threads.Haha. To be completely honest, a not-insignificant amount of my frustration stems from the fact that the destinations I tend to prefer are also the sorts of destinations that /pol/posters love to hate. That's part of my old/trv/ nostalgia, too--I miss being able to talk about South Asia, the Middle-East, and Latin America without having to wade through a mountain's worth of garbage on the way (irony intended). Anyway, I get what you're saying: I don't think there's awfully much that can be done to combat /pol/-based influences. I am happy that one of the mods at least made a new thread to garner sticky suggestions, so that's something.I, personally, wouldn't mind seeing a handful of quality-control rules--for instance, OPs should exceed a certain length or provide a "reasonable" level of detail. But it's not something I've given much thought to.
please be sure to take breaks :)
>>8888I'm not being paid to take breaks>mods getting quads
>>8888I've been on a break since I started>clear one report every week to appear "active">hang out in discord 24/7this "janitoring" thing is easy as fuck B)
>>8888Blessed quads
>>8888clearly an injected modget, no fun allowed as usual
As mercenary as this sounds, I'm not going to stop being a janny for as long as I use 4chan because buying crypto each year for a pass is annoying. Going through reports occasionally and deleting obvious infringing posts is a trivial price to pay.The only frustration I've had so far is having to reconcile having to tolerate/clear stuff I find disgusting or that I personally feel doesn't belong on my board, with the mods' direction for it. I tell myself there's a higher priority behind allowing _ _ _ _ _ posting or _ _ _ _ _ posting for example, something maybe to do with enforcing the rules with the intent of maintaining order while not causing a chilling effect?????. It's hard to discern the overall vision that mods want for 4chan sometimes and despite a very open and friendly professional mod team, it's still a little embarrassing to just not know where the line ought to be drawn when feeling like I should know.
>>8895>it's still a little embarrassing to just not know where the line ought to be drawn when feeling like I should know.I firmly believe 4chan is our last defense against skynet because the cultural norms are reinforced through this sort of socially shepherded indoctrination. It's like that experiment with the (rape) apes and the hose that would spray them, etc. By doing it the way they do it ensures a flexible yet cohesive group that adapts to changing circumstances without fracturing;imagine a school of fish or flock of birds in flight. The pedagogy is very sound, since it's the oldest and most primal ways of learning complex things and holding on to that skill for life.Imagine a million (rape) apes with typewriters... Eventually they self organize into a team of mentats, and the learning curve and need to ask for guidance is worth that outcome.
>>8896Are you saying 4chan will survive GPTbots and AI-led social engineering because mods use sticks to beat anons into shape, thereby guaranteeing the formation of some sort of hivemind/online culture/social microcosm that has an enduring core nature resistant to excess outside change, and will eventually become something far more advanced, and jannies ought to find it worthwhile to constantly learn until they can aid the transformation of 4chan into this state of culture?
>>8897Yes, this is my hypothesis.
>>8895The free pass is well worth it considering my daily use of 4chan, and not having to trifle with crypto shit.I do very much love my board however, and my primary motivation was "This kind of shit needs to stop, and it seems I'll have to be the one to do it."
>>8897Considering the human brain remains the most sophisticated 'computer' in the history of the world, which will forever dwarf even the most refined and powerful super computer in every aspect besides number crunching? Yes.AI is an autistic cripple which can only actually do ONE lone aspect of abstract thought, it can't adapt to anything without being handheld by man ever step of the way, it's not even cognizant. It can be a powerful weapon in the hands of a human in certain applications, but we will sooner see the next step of human evolution (be that purely biological or cybernetically augmented), than we'll see machines usurp us.Skynet does not have a snowball's chance in hell against us before we even get to the part where it's going to be 100% dependent on manual input by us to perpetuate itself. Our tribal monkey brains is what put us on the goddamn top of this food chain, and has kept us there for hundreds of thousands of years.This computer is my bitch, I am its master.
