Anyway, /jp/ kind of sucks. It's about half general threads and half really mediocre Touhou threads. Most of the individual general threads aren't bad threads per se, but they are completely non-interactive with the rest of the community for the simple reason that if you're (say) a dedicated mahjong enthusiast there's really no reason for you to feel obligated to interact with any of the threads in /jp/ that aren't about mahjong.

This is incidentally a perfectly sustainable arrangement, topic threads sailing on indefinitely on a sea of random Touhou crap. /vg/ is by all accounts not in any danger of collapsing. It's just also kind of boring. If a non-general board is like a street market where you never know what you're going to find around the corner, a board full of generals is like a mall, or maybe Amazon: you know exactly what you want and where you're going to get it.

If someone were to ask me how we got here I could probably invent a few dozen reasons and draft a list of watershed events that got us where we are, but that would involve going over a lot lot of things that are maybe not best brought up here (or at all) so I'll just switch the conversation to looking at a few contemporary problems:

(cont.)

>>6416 (cont.)
Well, calling them "problems" that need fixing might be overstating it, so I'll just leave it at things that I think aren't the greatest:

1. Nobody not from /jp/ wants to use /jp/ for anything.
2. Nobody from /jp/ wants anyone "not from /jp/" to use /jp/ for anything.
3. Everything that's not a general thread or a Touhou thread is immediately buried beneath a sea of general threads and Touhou threads.
4. Various structural issues by which users feel comparatively constrained while posting in /jp/.

/jp/ is like an old-growth forest where all the trees are completely mature and no sunlight reaches the ground floor so that new trees can grow. Every "new" tree in /jp/ that appeared in the last three years is really just a tree that came from somewhere else. There's nothing really particularly terrible about playing host to a bunch of mature self-contained communities but it does mean that the designated board for "Japanese things not anime or manga" becomes less available for free-form use of its initial purpose.

It's reached the point where I personally think that /jp/ should be cut in half (because what 4chan really needs at this point in time is to cut a small board into two even smaller boards) but I'd like to hear if anyone else has a take on the situation.

Any suggestions of a split of any kind is always going to end up with one being "the containment board", it's ironic to bring this up considering /jp/ is like the original containment board. Or the original /trash/. Whatever it is, there's a multitude of threads that have nearly zero relation to eachother aside from "People are REALLY into this topic and it doesn't belong on /a/, too slow for /vg/, or they'd rather be anywhere but /int/"
Cue jokes about "military otaku" and "washing machine otaku"

If we want to get into the actual meat of what the board is let's start taking numbers.
At any given moment there are 3-7 AKB threads (depending on which spammer is awake), because they pump through 300 images to image limit and dump the thread, averaging about 700-1000+ posts over an 8 hour period.
They've grown so large they even split off into an AKB subgroup general all of it's own.
H!P, Babymetal, Alternative, and Perfume can maybe manage a second thread up concurrently, but they typically fall off to about page 9/10 before remaking without hitting image limit. Stardust Idol and "Retro Idols" is about as slow as it gets, and now more recently the Seiyuu thread have started a brand new general.

The we have the video games side.
Elona, Rhythm Games, "Nutaku/DMM", KanColle, Fate/Grand Order, Len'en, GUST, Touhou Gameplay (Yes this needed to be it's own thread, more on that later).
Usually one of each, the outlier here is KanColle which masses about a thousand posts in it's life.

Visual Novels: VNTS, Untranslated, Umineko, Otome/BL. Rarely another thread will pop up but not last terribly long. I'd say twice a month.
Light Novels: One big LN general, and Kawakami.

Misc generals:
DJT, which exists simultaneously on /jp/ and /int/.
Monster Girls, which is the single most massive thread on the board always, but they actively refrain from posting images so as to not "waste them". If they do hit image limit they're so absolutely paranoid of making a new thread they shout down anybody that tries despite zero precedent of this ever being an issue moderation-wise.
Vocaloids, occasionally gets character threads.
MMD, fairly infrequent so not a true general, but usually one up.
Gravure, for some reason.
JAV, again for some reason.
Kigurumi, Onaholes, Fumos, Japan Photography, Retro japanese music, Retro japanese stuff in general, Dolls, Denpa, Train station cameras,

AND THEN THE TOUHOU CHARACTER THREADS. As of posting this there are about 81 threads up of just touhou things.

Here's the problem with the touhou threads.
They don't go anywhere, they don't do anything. They exist as pure autism-driven filler to make sure the 5 AKB threads up at once don't become 40 AKB threads up at once.
Once a day like clockwork, a single post will bump every touhou thread. Discussion is barebones, they just can't stand to see their thread be bumped off the board, even if it takes two days for it to happen.

>>>/jp/17354382 100 days old
>>>/jp/17387271 93 days
>>>/jp/17448687 80 days

The more popular ones usually wont make it to two months, but they don't need to and they don't understand this.
All it serves to do is add an artificial "speed" to the board that slides the bump limit idol generals 80 posts below the surface, where the replacement idol threads or the very limited amount of unique niche threads get made will eventually push those threads off the back end to rest peacefully.

So if you're considering splitting /jp/, which part and why?

tl;dr the lifetime of threads is misleading due to autism. I want to see Marked for deletion (Old) trialed on the board. It wouldn't be the first time /jp/'s been the testing ground for new features.

>>6421
Touhou in /jp/ is like water that fills up a bottle after you've filled up the rest of the bottle with rocks. It doesn't matter how many rocks are in the bottle, the bottle is always full of water. Even so, whoever is autistically metering up these threads to prevent /jp/ from being /jpg/ right out of the box may lay off if /jp/ gets more topic variety. (I wouldn't be surprised if some of this is orchestrated by the same guy who's been running all the stupid /qa/ bots.)

>So if you're considering splitting /jp/, which part and why?
I would push for /jp/ + /jpg/. The goal of this split would be restore /jp/ to a state where if you wanted to discuss something you could make a thread for it and it wouldn't immediately get buried to page 2 by threads that everyone has seen a hundred times before.

(cont.)

>>6422 (cont.)
/jpg/: By my count we have a little over 40 general threads in existence right now, with maybe another 5 that come and go. It's possible that another 10 or 20 could be optionally pulled from /vg/ for threads that have strong otaku connections or /jp/ heritage (idol games, H-games, waifu collection games, there's a lot to dissect there but it might be worth thinking about.) I think that /jpg/ can accommodate itself over time.

/jp/: This would be the problem board. Right now if you took away all the general threads you'd have Touhou and more Touhou threads. If the 81 Touhou threads expanded to be 140 Touhou threads of the same mediocre quality it'd be a disaster. The hope would be that the massive sucking sound ensues after removing all the general threads and, say, performing some sort of crackdown on these stupid zombie threads, would encourage people to create threads for all sorts of individual characters, videos, events, and all sorts of shit that nobody bothers making threads for anymore.

Yes, they CAN do it now in /jp/, but people learned a long time ago that trying to make threads for random things means you have to commit to protecting, bumping, and generally tending the shit out of your thread to make sure it isn't instantly buried in the usual threads. Very few people have that kind of commitment to trying to discuss random shit. Easier to go to the nearest general (or make a new one) where force of numbers will at least make sure that people see your post instead of having it quietly float off page 10. All "native /jp/ posters" have long since acclimated themselves to this environment.

(cont.)

>>6423 (cont.)
If you break up a board into two halves, clearly one of the halves isn't going to be able to have 75 threads in it because there were only 150 to begin with. The hope here is that people are able to do something useful with the 75 spaces that open in /jp/ instead of just making 75 more threads about Touhou butts. I did say above that "native /jp/ posters" might be too jaded for it by now, but space can be filled by anyone. Sakura Quest wasn't the greatest show (or maybe I'm just not cut out for it) but a line from it sticks with me to this day: "The only people who can revive a dying town are young people, idiots, and outsiders."

I think there are honestly a lot of posters on 4chan who currently want to have nothing to do with /jp/ even if they want to discuss some of the "fringe bullshit you guys have tried to argue belongs in /a/" that /jp/ was originally created for. Right now, I believe the perception is that /jp/ is not a place where you can drop in and have a conversation unless you happened to have brought an entire general thread with you, and users resist using it even when it's the correct board for a given topic. Points 3 and 4 which I mentioned earlier are seen from outside /jp/ as well, I think.

It could be that like the Marked for Deletion (Old) you mentioned in >>6421 would be enough to breathe life into the board, and while I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, I think that /jp/ may have crystallized to the point where it's going to take some sort of bombshell to change things up. Drastic actions always come with their own set of problems so maybe it's worth trying to tweak the board first, but I feel like things have been settled this way for a while now.

Anyway, that's probably most of what I had to say for the time being. I've been sitting on some of these ideas for a while now so there's probably places where I have been getting ahead of myself and running away with the conversation so sorry if I did that.

>It wouldn't be the first time /jp/'s been the testing ground for new features.
No doubt it's because we're moot's favorite board.

>>6424
>I think there are honestly a lot of posters on 4chan who currently want to have nothing to do with /jp/
I mean this is prevalent even within /jp/.
Monster girl threads berate eachother for daring to leave their safe hole of a general, kancolle posts that do try to mimic the touhou threads get flat ignored at best and shitposted in on standard.

Touhou threads on /v/ discuss anything but the game itself, and if they get moved the /jp/ it's "shit mods fuck you touhou is a video game". They shit up the place then leave back to /v/ to try again whenever a mod isn't looking.

>I think that /jp/ may have crystallized to the point where it's going to take some sort of bombshell to change things up.
Funny because old thread pruning I think would be a pretty drastic change from the norm. Would this encourage a higher volume of generally shit threads just to fill the gap? Or would it cause people to put more effort into their threads to get people to post in them faster before their alloted time was up?
Honestly, probably the former, but wont know until we try.

>>6426
I guess if you count up 40 spaces for general threads and 80 spaces for Touhou character threads then it's clear that Touhou is filling up "more of the space," I had been thinking about it like water that fills up gaps but if someone is specifically making them and keeping them alive to fill up the board then it's actually pushing out more unique threads than the general threads are. If they're the result of user-driven "board-engineering" then it really changes the equation.

>Touhou threads on /v/ discuss anything but the game itself, and if they get moved the /jp/ it's "shit mods fuck you touhou is a video game". They shit up the place then leave back to /v/ to try again whenever a mod isn't looking.
I don't even think we allow a "Touhou thread" in /jp/, you have to focus on some aspect of the series to make a thread which inevitably stalls, not because it's not interesting but because it blends in with the other hundred Touhou threads and has probably been discussed to death in /jp/ anyway.

>Funny because old thread pruning I think would be a pretty drastic change from the norm.
What would you be thinking for a cutoff here? A month? Two weeks? Two weeks starts to hit quite a few of the slower generals that don't survive elsewhere like denpa, dolls, and Perfume. A month axes about 20 Touhou threads but that doesn't help if they're immediately replaced by another 20 Touhou threads and there's some very old topic threads mixed in there as well.

It would be nice if there were some way to mark only character threads (old) after two weeks. Having to micromanage all the individual threads on a board is inherently kind of stupid but if we're up against people trying to engineer the board passive measures are limited in what they can do. If that's not an option a fixed cutoff still might do work in and of itself.

Well, whether any developer or mod is willing to take /jp/ under wing is still up in the air but thinking things through can't hurt.

>>6428
Honestly, even after all saying all this, if I think about reform it's still hard to me to imagine that /jp/ can change. Even we shuffle out thirty stale threads that's only 20% of the board and by it's very nature its going to be the 20% of the board that nobody looks at. I'm not sure trying to fix the board by the "tail-end" is good enough.

In my mind anything that might have a chance of "restoring" the flow of /jp/ is going to have to do something about the fact that the front page is mostly threads that thread-outsiders don't give a shit about at any given time. I haven't finished learning Japanese by any means but I'm LONG past giving a shit about the DJT permanently encamped on the front page. Unless /jp/ really rises to the challenge (and since when has /jp/ ever let us down?), it feels like the kind of thing that would require structural changes to the board, whether it's an admin change to the organization of the board or a developer change to the way that threads flow.

>>6428
>if someone is specifically making them and keeping them alive to fill up the board then it's actually pushing out more unique threads than the general threads are. If they're the result of user-driven "board-engineering" then it really changes the equation.
That was my thought process behind the automatic old thread pruning system, a slow burning image dump interlaced with nonsense bumps isn't doing anything for the board but creating a touhou-flavored artificial speed to it.

>What would you be thinking for a cutoff here?
I'd say trial it at a month at first so people don't freak out immediately, but two weeks seems a comfy cutoff. I'll use my list above of current threads as an example of what we'd lose.
>(Current Days Alive / Total Posts)
A month: Retro Japan Gen (30/102) Denpa (30/122), Mahjong (32/292), Japanese movies (33/252), Stardust Idols (55/243), Train Cam (60, 230), And a total of 21 of those endless bump touhou image dumps.
Two weeks: Retro Japanese music (14/32), Len'en (15/64), Otome (16/348!), Higurashi (18/201), Japan Photography (18/115), Kawakami (19/194), Perfume (20/251), Dolls (23/334!), Gaki no Tsukai (24/64), Plus all of the above, and another 13 character dump threads.

So yeah clearly just dropping a two week timer on things would kill a lot more threads, at least the way things are now. Mostly i'm curious what kind of reaction to knowing threads WILL expire will have on the board? A lot of people seem to think they're "wasting space" by making new threads, or that one retarded trend of "a thread died for this" that luckily didn't gain much ground.

Will the daily bump character shrines be replaced by daily new threads instead, to the point the board is filled up again with week-old single post threads? Or will people actively discuss topics that come up without thinking "Meh, it'll be here forever i'll reply later"?

>>6429
>I'm not sure trying to fix the board by the "tail-end" is good enough.
Partially "Fixing the tail end" while simultaneously creating a situation where users have room to post more freely without encroaching on this General attitude. Something something ephemerality or whatever moot went on about. Could go on a long rant about how the various archives helped kill this feeling but that's pointless.

Will users post more freely knowing their thread wont be autismally bumped for 6 months? Will they just spam more useless threads without sticking with it? Or will they all just create and huddle up in "your touhou waifu general" to try and keep up in post count?

>>6430
>Or will people actively discuss topics that come up without thinking "Meh, it'll be here forever i'll reply later"?
I'm not sure how much that plays into it. I feel like some of these these slow-ass topic threads don't have that much room to get faster in any reasonable way without people users sort of "forcing" themselves to talk about something and speed up, the thread the way that general threads in faster boards sometimes arbitrarily invent posts in order to stay alive. Then again when a thread's entered the part of its life-cycle where it musters about one thread a month maybe desperately fishing for anything to talk about isn't a bad thing.

>A lot of people seem to think they're "wasting space" by making new threads, or that one retarded trend of "a thread died for this" that luckily didn't gain much ground.
I feel like people's posting standards in /jp/ are simultaneously too high and too low. The concept behind "a thread died for this" isn't inherently bad in the sense that it's supposed to encourage people to make quality OPs but in practice it just means nobody makes any OPs except people with no standards whatsoever.

>>6431
>Will users post more freely knowing their thread wont be autismally bumped for 6 months? Will they just spam more useless threads without sticking with it? Or will they all just create and huddle up in "your touhou waifu general" to try and keep up in post count?
I imagine we'd see some consolidation of both general threads and non-general threads, and maybe some minor speed increases. It would be nice if there were some sort of objective, simple, one-size fits all solution that could fix up the board generally and improve the experience for everyone. Some of the topic threads that surpass the month cutoff are nearing the standard 300 post limit to the point that they're not liable to be particularly harmed by by instituting a hard cutoff. I think as a "starting point" it's a safe enough one.

Still, I'd remain worried about the state of the front page. If I had to design a wishlist one-board solution I feel like at some point there should just be measures by which general threads and non-general threads are formally treated differently. 2ch-type and 2chan-type threads have very different heritage and institutionalizing the difference could go a long way in improving the flow of the board. For example, maybe general threads would only bump every so often (so they aren't permanently pasted to page 1 until they hit bump limit), but would also be able to dodge the two-week MfD cutoff (so that more niche topics could stay alive.) Users could set the flag on thread creation and staff could modify it if necessary.

Having a custom feature like that would be a pipe dream but I think it would go a long way in making /jp/ look more like a normal board.

>>6435
I realized that I'm sort of fixated on these "custom solutions" but I really do think that the front page is not going to change at all without one. Even if /jp/sies made TWICE as many threads as before, twice zero non-Touhou threads a day is still zero. /jp/sies just don't make threads. If you want them made either there has to be some massive concerted internal push for it or you're going to have to get them from elsewhere.

This sort of runs headfirst into a sort of delicate issue around the way that /jp/ is moderated, but I think it is the case that a lot of users from elsewhere get massive culture and rules shock both when they come to /jp/ for the first time and immediately turn around and go home. The overall "level of enforcement" in /jp/ is significantly higher than in a lot of other boards and users who run into it turn around and try to sneak their topics back into /a/ or /v/ (or wherever the quasi-/jp/ topic is being discussed) rather than trying to adapt to /jp/, after which the "my friends are here" effect kicks in and keeps them out of /jp/ indefinitely.

For example, there's a FSN thread up right now, >>>/a/164071590, that could easily be a /jp/ thread based solely on the topic but if it were in /jp/ I could see a fifth of those posts being axed and the people who made them warned/banned for making shitty posts, and it sometimes happens that way in practice when threads are moved to /jp/. I'm happy to table enforcement issues for now in favor of structural issues concerning generals / non-generals in /jp/ but if I had to draft a list of reasons why people keep forcing /jp/ topics into other boards I think that it's a factor that needs to be listed alongside "my friends are here" and /jp/'s reputation as 3D idol autism hell and the like. Anyway, that's the last I'll say on that particular topic for now.

If people want to post silly things in /jp/, that is fine by me. But since more people want to talk about idols and monstergirls, it is that way.

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>>6438
And it could open up those posters to break free of their self-imposed general constraints, or add more silly ura-style threads. ~It is a mystery~

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There are multiple mental maneuvers that one can take in order to come to very different conclusions about what /jp/ is now compared to the past, and whether or not it's better for it. What it is today is an island of stability that people in fact wished desperately for some years back. Is the board more memorable and meaningful for it, though?

I would say that some of what may be wished for / desired in this conversation is confined to the past. What is desired? A pleasant, very relaxed and open (but vastly storied and experienced) atmosphere, and authentic excitement for the place itself? Such trends may be more of related to when the board still very much felt like an /a/ offshoot in 2008, a time quite different overall from today for not just /jp/ but also /a/ and 4chan as a whole. Subjects that had intermingled on /a/ now had their own place and with that came a prevailing wind of users and common bonds. The wind died down over time, and with it the common bond of the board.

What we see on /jp/ today with a balkanization into preferred enclaves is now endemic to many boards with lower posting rates 4chan-wide. The longer time it's been away from /a/ with more cycles of user turnover, the more it's diverged. Old /jp/ is to me like an exotic, long-extinct fantastic creature of history, like the anomalocarid Aegirocassis benmoulai - heavily derived from its former niche, making a success for itself very different from its contemporaries, utterly spectacular. I look at Touhou threads on current /jp/ but don't see the progeny of Aegirocassis. Rather, I see in each a Schinderhannes bartelsi - same lineage of creature, but swimming around in a far-future world that has evolved much around it, its very existence a shock from having existed past several extinction events. It's evolved new features for its lineage, but will never turn back into that Aegirocassis even if you protected them in a private ocean. You'd AT BEST get something convergent, but never the same.

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PSA - Hisoutensoku threads and Flanfly threads are fine; if people report them just clear them. Some Soku threads have been removed for entirely-unclear reasons lately.

Hello everyone, myself and another /jp/ janitor were discussing a frequent source of serious complaints about the rules/legality of certain topics within idol generals on the board, questioning our inaction taken on certain subjects within them. Since this has been coming up for months in meta and producing issues within a thread, we'd like to look into getting a brief mod post clarifying this.

In specific, in the AKB general thread a group known as IZ*ONE, a hybrid group compromising members from Japan (including AKB48) and South Korea, has constantly come under question as to whether it's permitted or not. The general stance from the /jp/ janitors has been to leave up posts about this group in the thread. The rationale is, given as to how IZ*ONE has releases in both Japanese and Korean and also markets in Japan (where it is quite successful), we feel that it is legitimately within Japanese idol discussion context, as it is legitimately designed and marketed to cater to audiences in both countries, and has been well-received as such in both. Compare this situation to that of Honey Popcorn, which while consisting of Japanese members was formed intentionally as a Kpop group to be marketed in Korea, and as such, is not viable on /jp/.

In summary, what we seek is for an official clarification regarding IZ*ONE's presence on /jp/ to clear the air. Any other comments/questions about /jp/ and other goings-on also could happen here as well.

As of late, there has been increased attention on three generals which were previously given a more off-hands moderation. Here they are listed, and the rationale for more focus:
1. Rhythm Games General
>Persistent identity politic trolling (i.e. irrelevant "tranny" bashing)
2. Virtual Youtubers Thread
>Persistent inter-group trolling (nijifags, holofags, etc.) with little regard to actual discussion of virtual youtubers
3. Daily Japanese Thread
>Off-topic discussion being the norm

For the first two, stricter moderation for on-topic has been effective, though janitors/mods should keep them in mind.

For the DJT, moderation for off-topic has been consistently rejected. Most of the regular posters simply use the general to shoot the shit about any topic, like a discord/irc channel, with the occasional tangential post about Japanese language and study. It has been this way for years, and the general attitude is that if someone wants to actually discuss Japanese language, they should go the /int/ DJT, which is much more on-topic.
It is my opinion that the /jp/ DJT is redundant, and might qualify for being purged for being inherently off-topic. If people would desire to genuinely discuss Japanese language, the /int/ DJT would still be available. I'll need input from other janitors before making that call, though.

>>7226
If possible, I would actually prefer moving Rhythm Games general to /vg/ since it has almost nothing to do with /jp/. They are mostly just dicussing about western rhythm game scene and some irrelevant discord drama anyway.

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For months, the vtuber generals have been regularly receiving thousands of posts before being archived. With an image limit of 300, this leads to a lopsided situation where the general may reach image limit long before being archived. This has led to 3 of the same general persisting on the calendar for some time, and could lead to more in the future.

If feasible, bumping the image limit to 350 or 400 would assist in mitigating this phenomenon without manual intervention.
If this is not feasible or preferred, manually requesting archives of abandoned older threads could also be effective.

>>7226
An update on those general:
>1. Rhythm Games General
Just keeping a tab on it is enough, since it just seems to be one guy who has an axe to grind against some online personalities in the Western community. If the discussion of those personalities relates to the actual games at all I may leave it be, but that attempt is rarely made.

>2. Virtual Youtubers Thread
Split into three generals, for hololive, niji, and vtubers as a whole. The former are dedicated to those respective groups, the latter dedicated to all other vtubers along with some niji-holo tribalposting. With the exception of the tribalposting and a few dedicated trolls in the latter, there is much less constant derailing in the threads as a whole.

The hololive general also became fast enough, as seen in >>7353 , to warrant limiting all threads on /jp/ to 2000 posts before archiving.

[cont]

>>7414
>3. DJT
From December to late February I attempted to prune only completely off-topic posts in the thread, and this was mostly unwelcome by regulars, who would often just evade anyway. The number of WRs and BRs that I made during that period was also notcieably higher, and would be made without accompanying reports. People in the general rarely report anyway, since there is little desire for the discussion to be limited to topics related to Japanese language.

It's not as if threads about learning/discussing Japanese language are inherently dead-on-arrival on /jp/ as a whole, like >>>/jp/25178536 . Rather, the regulars of the DJT really just want general discussion for people who happen to be learning Japanese, without a focus on the language. And so it leads to the situation where the general is not even on-topic for /jp/ at all for long stretches.
So I consider it effectively unmoderatable for on-topic on /jp/. For now, I usually don't touch the thread unless a report is issued, even if the discussion has little to do with Japanese language, media, or even otaku culture at all.

While it has been suggested that it be moved to /int/ (which already has a DJT on-and-off), many of the topics they bring up are not related to foreign culture and language at all, and so would be off-topic there as well.
I would recommend it either be moved to /bant/, /trash/, or just pruned and let one-off threads that are more than request threads float.

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So, it appears that sooner rather than later, there will be the debut of a new vtuber Hololive branch that will be composed of Westerners, speaking English for a Western audience (holoEN).

I've been thinking on-and-off, how we will handle these. While I've got my own ideas, as it's a bit of a unique situation I'm curious to hear thoughts from /jp/ meidos on it rather than just assuming they'll just be rolled up into the current threads. They don't necessarily have to be. Consider the following:

a.) Given how East/West collaborations have historically been considered more Western than Eastern in nature on 4chan, and that these new holos will possibly be catering more to a much more Western/Twitch-based audience and so on, are they even a proper fit for /jp/? If not, then where should they go?

b.) If they're not barred altogether, then should they have their own separate thread from Japanese-speaking hololive? As it stands, currently the couple non-JP ones are wrapped up in the main Holo thread, but that's in part due to their not really being a big deal, whereas I'm not certain if English/Western hololives may blow up as their own thing or not. So far everything that hasn't been the main JP holos has had either tepid reception or been an outright dud, but we cannot be too certain that holoEN won't balloon.

If anything, we actually may have a part to play in enabling its success or not by rolling it in with the main Holo pantheon or not - to be perfectly blunt I don't think the notion of a scene/threads full of Twitch kids fits /jp/'s mission whatsoever. Thoughts?

>>7459
I personally don't think non-japanese holos or other vtubers should be posted in /jp/ since we generally don't allow other non-japanese stuff like kpop or non-japanese idols either (only exception is that we allow people to post about kpop group called izone in /akbg/ since three of the izone's japanese members are also still members in akb48-related groups).

Here's my nightmare scenario what could happen if we allowed a separate thread for holoEN in /jp:

First people would try to split the current hololive general into holoCH, holoID, holostars, nijisanji EN, nijisanji KR and VirtuaReal (basically nijisanji CN) generals, then people would start spamming smalled vtuber group generals or individual vtubers (japanese and non-japanese) which would more or less just make /jp/ into a vtuber board that wouldn't even have anything to do with japanese otaku culture anymore.

Then those generals would start raiding each other like they already do, doxposting and hatespeech would also increase, but in much bigger scale, which would just overload our report queue even more and we just don't resources for something like that right now.

If we actually want to have something like that, I feel like the only real solution would be a separate board for vtubers only and move all current vtuber threads from /jp/ to the new board as well.

>>7460
Considering that OELVNs, Western VNs etc are also not /jp/ material it outright would match precedent to not allow natively-western/English-speaking Hololives on /jp/, and would be a breach to allow them as these functionally may be repackaged Western ecelebs overall.

What I'm wondering is if anyone has suggestions for the inevitable question of, "well where should they go" that would come with disallowing Western vtubers on /jp/, if we took to restricting them.

>>7461
i don't think that vtuber stuff needs to be explicitly allowed anywhere, but imo if they are going to go somewhere, /r9k/ is a pretty decent place for them
>A place for hanging out and posting greentext stories.
it's a fine board for people who want to just hang out and chat about whatever, including e-celeb stuff.

>>7462
I'd second this. Could add a bit of much needed variety to /r9k/ as well

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>>7461
>>7462
>>7463
I have to agree that holoEN doesn't need to be allowed anywhere, /kpop/ is similarly not allowed anywhere and it simply has several generals posted across multiple boards.

However, even if a place was needed for these, I don't think it should be /r9k/.
Beautification efforts aside, the posting experience would probably be a lot better on /bant/ or even /trash/ since the /kpop/ generals don't exist on /r9k/ while on /bant/ and /trash/ they're on their +2000th iteration for each board, give or take. I can't tell you why they don't exist there but clearly posters don't post those generals on /r9k/. The posting restrictions might also turn off most non-/r9k/ users not to mention that they'd have to share living space with robots.

Seeing as /bant/ has a heavy anime culture side to it and seeing as it too could use the variety and activity, it would probably be a better choice for any threads that need to be moved from /jp/ even if flags don't show up initially.
/trash/ could also be used but the existing /vtuber/ threads there are mostly lewds. Obviously none of us are even considering /b/ and it should stay that way.

The only problem I see with /bant/ might be the rejection of imp trash by posters, but since it's anime and not /pol/ I think it'll work out once they settle down there.

Do I think that anything in particular needs to be done though? No. Posters will choose their own home if you let them.
I also don't see why we should be "picking winners" over a private business venture just because some of us happen to be fans of the main line of "products" they offer. I'd like to think that HoloEN's success will be mostly dependent on them not sucking, not us choosing a corner to box them in. But if it's necessary for modding purposes, I think that /bant/ is the strongest choice.

>>7460
The first part more or less happened today after the holo global thread was allowed. People immediately started to create other split threads for holo JP where some groups (holostars) or members (towa) are not allowed. At worst we had 7 or 8 different split threads/generals at the same time and I'm sure we would end up having double the amount if we don't get rid of them as duplicates (like we do with every other general). People even talked about having separate threads/generals for every hololive jp members.

While some of those threads/generals could perhaps be within our board rules (some of them were clearly just trolling/spamming), I think we should also care about other topics and communities in /jp/ too and I'm sure they wouldn't like the idea of turning /jp/ into a board where 90% of the threads are vtuber related.

As for the hololive global thread itself, IMO it can stay at the moment since we can just move it to some other board like /bant/ if it becomes too off-topic for /jp/.

>>7460
>>7467
And just like I predicted, the second part has also happened over the past week over and over again. Most of the posts I see on my report queue are now dox-related posts, racial slurs, nws/guroposting and an attempt to start talking about some irrelevant twitch and youtuber ecelebs. They keep demanding for a vtuber only board, but after seeing how much rule breaking shit they are already posting, I'd say we shouldn't even consider it. This shit is exactly what "eceleb" board would become.

On a personal note, I think this situation is only going to burn our current janitors (and possibly some of the mods) out within weeks or a month if we cannot contain it in some way. Right now it's just way too easy for dox-posters to evade their bans and post the same shit immediately again.

>>7487
Well a distinct vtuber board would give us more space/time to monitor things for quality than we can currently manage, not just dox posting but overall candor/qualities of the threads, and also get this out of /jp/'s hair.

Nobody would have guessed these would blow up so big, so fast. Two weeks ago, we had 0 clue this thing, English-speaking vtubers under the control of one of the largest Japanese companies, was happening so soon. A week ago, we were sure these were going to suck, it'd be a flop and we would move on with our lives, not only that but many were mostly hostile to the idea itself. Now, they've proven everyone wrong (including me), and regardless of what longtime users of vtuber threads had wanted, a swarm of new people from all over the site have now populated the threads and made converts out of much of the doubters.

I don't think people unfamiliar with vtubers understand just how hype this getting. People are frequently reporting missing sleep, missing work to watch these things, going into withdrawal when there are no active streams. It's at a fever pitch. Not only is the impact far-greater than I would have guessed but the traffic is sustaining and hence will probably to taper out at a way-higher level than I would have expected - and this is literally just the beginning; it hasn't even been one week. These new ones are achieving in one week what took other vtubers several years to achieve. Tons of people watching these are newcomers to vtubers themselves; they outright state it when asked, and will start to spread the word/viral them. I don't know if a lot of the new viewers will land on 4chan but something's gotta give with this situation.

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>>7488
I check reports for the vtuber threads for around 5-6 hours per day, and I support the idea of a new board for mainly three reasons. The first is that the two hololive threads are a massive presence, accounting for over 90% of the board's traffic. Whenever a holo thread archives, people attempt to make a new one instantly, and if many people try this at once it can kill off old threads without warning. Combine this with the tendency of posters to leak out and post holos outside of the vtuber threads, or to ignore the board's etiquette, and this has made some people rather irritated. The second is that there's only one thread for vtubers outside the big 2 companies, and it's often filled solely with discussion of VOMS or "groomed indies" to where discussing anything else isn't really possible. Thus groups that are popular and have fans like Animare or Honey Strap never get discussed because it's drowned out by something else. And that something is my third reason: infighting. All of these threads are terrible at not taking bait, and get derailed constantly by trolling. Part of this is natural, but having everyone contained in 4 threads to begin with generates friction, so when people start to rub shoulders it gets nasty.

What my fellow janitor wrote above is true: This stuff burns you out. The 2 slower threads are usually chill, but all four are like combustion engines that can go off at anytime and look like a nuclear reactor failure. A new board may not solve all of it, but it will give some breathing room to the people who genuinely want to discuss vtubers versus the ones who want to partake in /v/ tier shitflinging, as a lot of them want to do. If it does get made, I'd be glad to help keep it clean. There would still be issues to deal with, but the threads on /jp/ are only getting worse, so it's a change worth contemplating.

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>>7625
Just to make it clear, this is what happens when no one is there for half an hour. It's like a /v/ off topic thread, but you can't just fix it simply by deleting the OP. Everything derails very quickly

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>>7625
>if many people try this at once it can kill off old threads without warning
«Inhale, exhale
Forward, back
Living, dying:
Arrows, let flown each to each
Meet midway and slice
The void in aimless flight

Thus I return to the source.

–Gesshu Soko (1696).»
>post holos outside of the vtuber threads
It's Japanese culture.
>ignore the board's etiquette
Let people call them a newfag, sage their replies (don't tell anyone), report them, call the cops. Being a newfag gaijin is not against the rules.
>The second is that there's only one thread for vtubers outside the big 2 companies
/jp/ mods/jannies ruled that it should be this way (for a reason). Either way, discussion still happens in it to a greater degree than on Holo threads by virtue of being slower; if anything.
>infighting
Fighting in of itself is not against the rules. What usually is: trolling, ironic shitposting, racism, spamming, etc. can and should be W/BR.
>rub shoulders
Users want it this way, just look at what they post, I think the "chaos" is fun myself and usually not rule breaking. Do not develop a headcanon for what should and shouldn't be posted based on "user feedback". If you want to address something you perceive as a problem please do so as a user. Lead by example, post high quality thought provoking posts, denounce metafagging and reply with dignified Japanese haikus from time to time.

>This stuff burns you out
If you want more in-depth discussion then perhaps consider lifting the "ban" on character threads. There's also the "focus on rulebreaking posts only" suggestion which I think you should all take it to heart since it highlights what you should be doing as meidos. Meido is depicted in fanart sleeping and playing vidya while ignoring the queue, don't forget you have a personal life; much of our "jobs" are self-inflicted, that's the same for everyone regardless of their board.

>>7632
If we lifted the ban on character threads, the catalog would get flooded with vtubers and all stuff besides generals would be screwed. And that's also survival of the fittest, but it is pretty harsh to everyone else. We've had boards made many times when a topic was taking up huge portions of space on another board. What we have now isn't horrible, but I still think it can be improved from a board, even if it's just to give more room for discussion without stepping on anyone else's toes.

Thanks for the input also.

>>7633
>but I still think it can be improved from a board
I do not think that this is the sort of situation where a new board can be made since it'd be one step too close to having a full on internet celebrity board.
>If we lifted the ban on character threads, the catalog would get flooded with vtubers and all stuff besides generals would be screwed
Personally, I really don't see how that could happen. I've been hearing this argument for months but when you actually think about it with numbers it doesn't make sense.
There's 84 2hu threads on /jp/ right now. Why? Simply because no one's bothering to make threads to replace them; not because 2hu is popular, but rather that there's literally very little else to discuss on /jp/ that doesn't have a general already. If you think about it, there being 20 Hololive threads (there's 53 Hololive idols and not all would have a thread) would not change anything; people would still have nothing else to replace the 20 Hololive threads and the 64 2hu threads with. One topic being more popular than the other also doesn't impact things, Hololive would be spread out across multiple threads (if the users so choose) and these would be significantly slower than the 2 generals; hence they'll last a longer time and also help to slow down the 2 big generals. This would ultimately allow for more quality discussion surrounding vtubers on the board.
>even if it's just to give more room for discussion without stepping on anyone else's toes.
But that's the thing, there is plenty of room for discussion on /jp/. If anything it looks like /jp/ is too big for Otaku Culture seeing how more than half of the board is just one topic.

>Thanks for the input also
I just like posting on /j/.

>>7635
I think having one of the long-time /jp/ users opinion here would be helpful, because I agree that I don't personally see most of the touhou threads as good, but I'm still new and want to give precedence to people more familiar with the place, who could judge whether allowing more vtuber threads is a big deal or not. That said, if we did let them post outside the specific threads, it could definitely take over the board. That's a thing to keep in mind

>>7636
>if we did let them post outside the specific threads, it could definitely take over the board.
I don't see this as a problem worth worrying about. Vtubers are part of otaku culture as long as they are Japanese (or part of a Japanese company, i.e. HoloEN, ect.) If there were no limit to the number of vtuber threads and /jp/ ended up with a lot of them, it would just be a reflection of how much people want to discuss them. "Otaku culture" is a very broad concept, and limiting the discussion of vtubers to two threads seems to unnecessarily restrict such a popular subject. I'd personally rather have more vtuber threads with quality discussion at the cost of losing a few Touhou-ecchi-image-dump threads.

This being said, I'm fairly new as well, so it is likely that I do not understand the full scope of the situation.

One Another Note:
>>>/qa/3704808
Other janitor/mod opinions of this?
I can recognize the format predictably, but I've generally cleared it for seemingly being relevant to 07th Expansion discussion.

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>>7641
Seems to me like a bunch of users trying to mob lynch a poster they don't like. I've gone over the past few threads and didn't see any blatant rule violations or over-blown participation/spam from that user.
Maybe he's more subtle than that, but I honestly just think that he's identifiable = pisses people off and that's why they want him permabanned from the thread.

>>7641
>>7643
He's known for spamming it on /a/ which is probably why he's coming to /jp/ more often. He totally shits up threads if you don't stop him so it's justified to ban, and I think he may frequently evade anyway.

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https://warosu.org/jp/thread/S32275956#p32603091
If you see images of a 3D Ran MMD model being posted with little relevance, it is most likely one dedicated anon. They have previously been doing it in Ran-dedicated threads for some time, much to the frustration of at least one other anon. Wasn't sure if action was required there.
However, they've been branching out to other threads like the above, which is more clearly just spamming the same series of images. If you see something similarly irrelevant in another thread, I would WR/BR (at your discretion) and prune it all. It's not subtle.
As far as actual Ran (or fox, Yakumo family, fox, etc.) threads go, I think it is more a degree of clear intent to troll, and both the bait and the posts that take it should be considered at your discretion.

/jp/ seems to be improved and I've been trying to check it more (than never). I have trouble telling if some of the insane people in the LL thread are contributing or are just spammers.

>>7730
Yes, there are definite strong feelings about how it's going so far but in truth it is work in progress - the board is cooling down; yesterday was its slowest post-per-day in about half a year. Most importantly to me, there is a lot lesser of thread turnover pushing off glacial (but very real/established) community threads out the board, which was the really concerning/damaging thing to me.

It's definitely still an ongoing situation, with only a partial migration. I mean my assumption was that the vtuber remainder would be more like Pokemon on /v/, where it comes up sometimes but it's not a dominating presence, but it's not turned like that... yet.

The thread turnover rate has definitely improved, though many are saying it's still too fast. It's a tricky situation, a few of the vtuber threads on /jp/ have nice small communities that might not be fast enough to survive on /vt/, so moving them there might kill them. Between hololive's popularity and other western vtubers, other Japanese vtubers have little opportunity for discussion there, so I'll be glad if they can stay on /jp/. /vt/ is destined to be a faster board, it's more than twice the speed of /vrpg/ after its creation. It may be a little unfortunate for /jp/'s speed, but 6-12 hours still isn't a bad archival speed at all, hopefully it sinks even lower.

Looks like someone(s) is intentionally using the same modus operandi as 2hu character threads to make solo vtuber threads. What I think >>7635 may not be considering is that /jp/ does have longtime posters that are more concerned with meta/catalog aesthetics than, well, actual discussion in those threads, and so the mere act of creating threads for Holo/Niji/etc. vtubers, without revealing any negative intention, and keeping them on the catalog, is purpose enough. This has resulted in a meta slap fight that has little to do with discussing vtubers, 2hu, etc. They might just be trying to have as many vtuber threads on the catalog to spite anti-vtuber posters, and those threads are getting constantly derailed by antis.
However, they aren't being more vacuous than many of 2hu/im@s/etc. threads in terms of tangential bumping to prevent archival of threads, so unless they admit to trolling there isn't necessarily any rule being broken. As far as I know, if a thread is on-topic and not intentionally trolling/low-quality/other rules, the thread floats.

Any ideas on how to handle this situation?

>>8026
there's nothing you as a janitor can do about something like that. don't worry about it

>>8027
Coolio

>>8026
I did consider it, but concluded that it was irrelevant since the rules trump those sorts of considerations. In fact those "considerations" are just them being inconsiderate towards another group of posters over non-rule-breaking threads being made, now and then.
At most you could keep an eye out for anti-holo posters that fall on the category of trolling/spamming/flooding (but I doubt there's a whole lot of it going on safe for 1 or 2 guys) otherwise nothing needs to be done.

Yeah, I'm not sure entirely how to handle threads like >>>/jp/35688928 , where the OP isn't substantial and so the thread is predisposed to filling up completely with meta complaining about VTubers on /jp/. I've been hesitant to delete meta replies just because 1) it's a lot of replies once it gets to the point of being reported, and 2) it seems to rile up anons and results in more complaining in the threads. The most I try to do is BR/WR for obvious trolling and delete reply chains that get out of hand.

Of course, if it's preferred to just delete meta stuff outright I'm happy to do so.

>>8031
>if it's preferred to just delete meta stuff outright I'm happy to do so
No, you should always warn/ban request over deletion whenever appropriate so that there's actually a reason given to the user for why moderation occurred. If anons complain about moderation you have GR8.
>it's a lot of replies once it gets to the point of being reported
Ask a mod for help, they'll do all the work for you if you do.
>it seems to rile up anons and results in more complaining in the threads
Think of it this way: Not doing anything results in more meta being posted until archival. Doing something results in more meta until they get banned or understand that meta is not allowed outside /qa/, at which point they'll stop. Do not hesitate to enforce the rules safe for when you're not sure of something.

>>8032
>No, you should always warn/ban request over deletion whenever appropriate so that there's actually a reason given to the user for why moderation occurred. If anons complain about moderation you have GR8.
disagree. plenty of things can be deleted without needing to be WRed or BRed. i do it all the time
not referring to specifically this topic, but just in general

>>8033
>Mods need to WR and BR
>Mods have janny alt accounts
Iceberg...

>>8034
lettuce...

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Pretty sure this is not a joke.
Anything that can be done to counteract this?

>>8047
Why are you letting yourself get psy-op'ed by some nerd ghostposting on warosu? Mods are the only ones that can deal with stuff like that, if it even exists and is happening and is rule breaking in any way such as spam.

>>8048
Yeah, that's fair.
I don't consider it being psyop'd though if the first part is at least reflective of what I causally encounter when run going through reports - though the intention could readily be made up.
The situation is not necessarily a problem to be solved, and definitely not by me or janitors. At the least I'm just making sure it is noted down.

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Call it psyops or not, this was patently and incrementally observable over the month as mentioned previously.
Just noting that people are treating the number of threads on the catalog like a board game regardless of interest in the supposed topic to an intentionally appreciable effect. Hardly the first time of course. Whether it is considered a problem is another thing.

>>8058
I like the cut of that guy's jib.

The first guy, I mean.

(._. )

>>8062
hehe nerd

>>8058
what do you realistically expect to be done about this?

>>8064
Good question.
I'll be the first to say that this is not a constant issue, and people simply being upset about certain on-topic topics having more threads is not a problem on its own unless they derail threads.
It's really only an issue when poster(s) are patently creating and keeping multiple threads up without any intention to actually say anything about the thread topic, regardless of the particular topic. For example, the bumps that only consist of an OP or post reply which are immediately deleted and do clearly nothing for the thread beyond preventing archival. At that point the main effect of the bump is on other threads rather than the bumped thread, as the post is no longer even present.

Earlier last month I would request autosage on the thread where delete-bumps had been done several times in a row, since the thread wouldn't be around if it depended on someone posting something relevant to the thread. A few times it was approved, and once I was told that a user doing these kind of bumps did not warrant an autosage, so I ceased requesting it.
As long as people are not doing this constantly, I think that is an appropriate ad-hoc treatment to be used sparingly. If that encourages them to at least bump with something pertinent, then it is no longer a problem.

What are y'all's thoughts on the "Hololive Global" thread?
If it was actually a split general centered around Hololive Global there wouldn't be any cause to treat it differently from any other general, and initially that is how I treated it.

But as far as I can tell since 2022 it has been made and kept bumped primarily by someone(s) with an axe to grind against Global discussion in the Hololive general, and pertains to either meta discussion regarding the latter general or tongue-in-cheek Hololive JP discussion. For the past months I've been checking in every so often and just pruning anything unrelated to Hololive, but there doesn't seem to be genuine interest in a split among those who discuss global in the "main" thread, and whoever makes it goes out of their way to display it isn't made in good faith. So it just kind of chills in the catalog with an egregious amount of deleted posts if one checks the archive, until either the OP fails to bump before archive or a janny/mod removes it, after which it is simply remade.

I think it meets the criteria of being a troll thread in that context. However, I am averse to pruning the OP on sight because I don't want to give off the impression that there is any discretion on making OPs relating to Hololive Global on /jp/, which AFAIK there is no particular stance. I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of the motivation behind making it as well.

Not a huge or pressing deal, just want to make sure we're on the same page and I'm understanding it correctly.

>>8879
Personally, unless the OP is violating a rule, I don't think there's a point in taking it down. If I see it in report queues I just check the thread to see if there's anything that would cause the report (sometimes people flag a whole thread when it's in flames), and if I don't see anything that breaks a rule I just mash that clear button.

>>8883
this is probably the best way to do it honestly
>>8879
however, if you think it's a legitimate issue, you should talk to the mod who keeps up with /jp/ the most (you know the one) and ask what he thinks. just shoot him a PM. he doesn't bite, and i'm sure he'd appreciate being kept up to date on these sorts of things as you spot them

>>8883
>>8885
okie dokie, I'll leave it be then:
>>>/jp/42162002

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>>8885

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>>8959
did you just post a frog on the /jp/ thread

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ｷﾀ━━━(ﾟ∀ﾟ)━━━!!

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>>8972

>>8975
this is like, the second or third worst haiku I've ever read

>>8976
So far!

If there is a Sakamichi thread made with members of BOKUAO (Boku ga Mitakatta Aozora), it is likely made in bad faith.
They copypasta the general OP without regard to updating dead links or even removing auto-embedding.

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>>6415 (OP)
should i apply to help moderate /jp/?

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>>8976
>>9052
Let's see if I can help.

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>>10159

>>10158
if you like the board and want to do more, you should always feel comfortable asking for more boards

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mfw the mod offers me a wafer-thin board

>>10162
Can we just straight up ask to be added to more boards? Good to know

>>10254
You can email RapeApe a mini-application. Nothing too elaborate; just what you know about the subject matter, the major problems, etc.

>>10254
Yes. You can also just discord message him, you dont necessarily have to email. But in my experience the first few times you do so he is likely to ask you to email as well for like security purposes or whatever.