/fringe/ - Fringe

Just posted in another thread where you commented.
I'd be interested in joining a sect of your order.
Currently residing in NYC.
I yearn for a fraternal order of like-minded individuals working towards personal enlightenment and the spreading of the light through the world.

How did you become an Initiate initially? Did you find them or did they find you?

>>15365
I wish I could help you but I have no contact with any of the American groups. Also all of our new initiates come through the slightly weird method of waiting for them to fall into our laps. It's not exactly reliable, but it seems to work rather well.

My advice? Focus on yourself. You don't need an order to improve or learn.

>>15368
A combination of both really with a heavy dash of "luck" involved.

At the time, while I believed heavily in concepts such as enlightenment, I rejected the concept of magic or the supernatural entirely. I was very heavily of the belief that rationality, logic and the acceptance of reality were the path to wisdom. It's a good path, I'd highly recommend it.

I knew a few members of the order just as friends with no knowledge that they were up to any sort of magical shit. I had a lot of respect for them. They all had that presence about them, that inexplicable look in their eye. Apparently I had something of that look in my eye too because one of the members was just sure that I was an occultist. She was worried that I was being led astray and so they invited me to join them. I spoke briefly with the head of our little group on the phone, I can't remember exactly what was said, but I remember hanging up the phone and thinking to myself, "Wow, is this actually the organised group of people seeking enlightenment that I gave up looking for when I was 15? Naaaah, probably just a bunch of nutters or worse some sort of cult."

I do like to keep an open mind however and I'm not one to turn down the prospect of adventure so I had readily agreed to meet with them. At first I was very skeptical and constantly on my guard lest they actually be some sort of cult. Being constantly on my guard was not an unusual thing for me at the time, however, as anyone who's walked the path I mentioned before will know.

The years passed and I grew warmer and warmer to them. At first I could see the wisdom in the things that they said but continued to frame it all in my very scientific paradigm. Even going to far as to suggest that perhaps mental communication was the result of our brains being able to detect and create small changes in the earth's magnetic field. Eventually I had to accept that they knew what they were talking about and started to incorporate some more mystical beliefs into my thinking.

It's been one hell of a wild ride from there.

why is london not included in this list?

http://www.golden-dawn.com/eu/displaycontent.aspx?pageid=331-our-traditional-golden-dawn-temples

>>15364
>It was a combination of the bardic and druidic traditions

I'm curios, are these Celtic druid traditions? As far as I was aware almost all knowledge of Celtic druids was lost, if your order does have information on them I'd be very interested in whatever you could tell me.

I'd also like to know about the oaths you took, I don't mind that you don't want to break them, but I'm curios about what the purpose of the oaths are. Why are oaths taken?

>>15372
Because whoever runs that website it isn't us.

As I've said, the order has split many times over the years. There are two or three websites like that floating around. None of them have anything to do with us, although their claims that they're descended from the original order may well be as true as ours.

There are a number of red flags around that site in particular, however, most notably that they seem very proud of owning the Golden Dawn trademark. I mean this isn't a fucking business. What the fuck do you need a trademark for? We're a fucking secret organisation. Also that they have a membership application form but, ok, maybe they just decided that was what's best for them as opposed to our method of doing things.

More over the whole thing looks like an advertisement. Very commercial. I can't see any grabs for your wallet however so I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt on that front.

Their claim that they're the "only remaining direct lineal descendent of the original Golden Dawn founded in by S.L. MacGregor Mathers in 1888" is fucking laughable. Mathers had quite a lot of students and as a secret fucking order how the hell are they supposed to know they're the only group? Not all of us decide to put up billboards on the internet.

Also it's weird they don't even seem to have a temple in England, let alone London. That is, after all, the birthplace of the order.

Ahhh, it appears they're descended from Alpha et Omega, which is the order Mathers founded after leaving London. I can see why they'd want to emphasise their connection to the Golden Dawn over that, the name has a lot more weight in occult circles.

In conclusion I think they're honest in their claims of descent from Mathers and probably well meaning in their efforts, but the really commercial feel of the whole thing means I wouldn't recommend them myself.

Their youtube channel is worth a giggle and my favourite thing that I saw was:

"MORE TRUTH REVEALED: Here is what New Age and Mystical Golden Dawn order leaders are terrified you will learn:"

I mean really?

>>15375
I have to imagine it was Celtic, we are English after all. Unfortunately I don't have copies of our histories at hand so I can't look up any specifics and I was always more interested in the hermetic side of things myself. I do remember the name of one of the older druidic groups was mount haemus. There were also many other mount X groups mentioned, but all of my information on the subject is personal accounts of people in the order none of whom were personally involved with any of the druidic groups.

Honestly the druidic aspect is very mild compared to the hermetic one. One of the only things we carry forward is respect for the equinoxes and solstices, which are very important to us.

As for my oaths. Weirdly I can't reveal the exact content of them because I'm under oath not to. Suffice to say they are oaths of secrecy and a general oath not to screw the lot of us over. With the exception of the keep our secrets part and even then only in situations like this they have never gotten in the way of anything I would have otherwise done.

What would you consider to be the mark of initiation as a magician?

For me, without a teacher or guidance, it is the creation of a fully realized tulpa to assist me in higher magic that will mark my graduation as a Neophyte.

>>15378
Initiation seems to have a slightly different meaning for you guys. To us it's a ceremony. I can't go into the details (fucking oaths) of our particular initiations but I suppose I can talk about initiation in general.

Initiation was always considered a really important thing. Almost every tradition in history has had some form of initiation ceremony and they often drew hard lines between initiates and non-initiates. Here's the rub though, it is an important thing and there are pretty hard lines as far as certain stuff goes. Those who know how to look can tell the difference (hint: it's in the eyes).

The world is changing, however, self-initiation is becoming a lot more common. I wouldn't recommend trying any self-initiation rituals, however, such things are best not forced. Focus on improving and, in time, you'll do it without even trying. As a general rule, always focus on improving, all the milestones, all the abilities you can gain, all of it is meaningless next to the improvement itself.

Now you may have noticed a slight discrepancy in this. I said initiation could be seen in somebodies eyes (the eyes are the windows to the soul, you can see a hell of a lot in there) but earlier I said that I had a look in my eye before I even knew the order existed let alone received initiations from them. I also said I walked another path before I met the order. I had a teacher in that path too, great guy. I remember one day as we were sat smoking joints with each other, totally out of the blue, he kinda waved the joint around in front of my forehead. It felt significant somehow and I remember him looking as confused about it as I was but neither of us said anything about it and we quickly brushed it off. Looking back… *Shrug* Who knows? There are plenty of other things you can see in someones eyes.

>>15384
since you are doing an AMA, you should require some kind of proof via a picture.

>>15433
A picture of what? We don't exactly get membership cards.

By all means doubt me, I wouldn't have it any other way. You should know that most of the stuff I've talked about regarding history is public record. It's available for anyone to look up.

>>15364

What would you say has been the most enlightening concept that's been shared with you?

>>15467
Now that's a difficult one. Probably that all consciousness is one consciousness. That all of us, from those not yet born, to those long dead to every single man, woman and child alive on this earth and beyond are one. That each of us and the universe in turn has the same single divine purpose and with every moment we fulfil it.

That said, that's less something that was shared and more something I found for myself. Which, really, is how things have to be. I mean you can say "all consciousness is one consciousness" a million times and phrase it a million ways but it's something that you must see to truly understand.

I suppose with that in mind probably just simple meditation. It may sound trite but there's a reason it's the very first thing most people learn. Learning to quiet myself and hear the whispers of my soul was arduous at first but so incredibly worth it. Also feels really fucking good man.

They take a pretty hands off approach to teaching, which is how things should be. As much as they'll teach me tarot or astrology or whatever else I fancy learning, they're not going to explain to me what it "really means" because doing so would somewhat defeat the point. Catch a man a fish and all that.

Nice synchronicity.
I literally thought "hmm… Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn…" out of the blue and I decided to open /fringe/, and this was the first thread.

>>15364 (OP)
Fellow G.'.D.'. initiate here.

What line are you with? Are you Cicero, Griffin, or some independent temple? I'm with an independent temple here, we use the original rites instead of the S.'.M.'. versions.

What grade are you? I have my 2=9 advancement soon. Hadn't realised the outer order would be quite so slow-paced, but I'm enjoying it.

>>15365
Plenty of orders in America. Avoid anything related to David Griffin or Robert Zink. The Ciceros are fine, but they use the Regardie versions of the rites, which are somewhat different from the original rites

>>15368
Most outer orders have websites, it really isn't too difficult. Find an order in your vicinity and email them, that's what I did. They'll interview you and see if you're a good fit for the order, if they can get on with you, etc.

Inner order is a different story, that's by invitation only once you reach Portal

>>15372
There are many different G.'.D.'. orders now, due to the original order splintering, and due to Regardie releasing a lot of the info.

The quality of orders varies, and some don't get on with each other. It's important to find an order full of nice, sensible people who don't get involved in retarded flame wars, I was lucky enough to find one like that

>>15375
To clarify, he's not suggesting that the G.'.D.'. incorporates celtic or druidic tradition.

I have a background in Celtic Studies, I can tell you there is no 'druidic' material in G.'.D.'.,although attempts have been made to crowbar in Celtic symbolism by some

>>15376
>Their claim that they're the "only remaining direct lineal descendent of the original Golden Dawn founded in by S.L. MacGregor Mathers in 1888" is fucking laughable. Mathers had quite a lot of students and as a secret fucking order how the hell are they supposed to know they're the only group? Not all of us decide to put up billboards on the internet.

If that's the Rosicrucian Order of A&O, I think that's Griffin's crowd, they're definitely best avoided.

Incidentally, around the time Koetting was outed as a carpet cleaner, Watcher Of The Dawn outed Griffin as a bus tour guide.

>>15464
i dont know, a robe? or garb you wear during ceremony

OP here. Y'all need to go back and read the part where I said we were distinct from the G∴D∴ which is part of the A∴A∴ which was Crowley's invention, as far as we can tell anyway. He claimed that it wasn't his invention and was an accurate portrayal of how the Golden Dawn was pre-1900. Our histories claim otherwise (although that's not to say it was a wholly inaccurate portrayal either). There are about 10 different accounts of what happened during this time, so the truth is anyone's guess. While there are many similarities between our order and the G∴D∴ there are also many differences. The most important of these differences is that we do not consider ourselves an outer order and do not recognise any inner order. We reject the concept of any humans as "secret chiefs" (which is not a term we use). We leave that to spirits and if anything consider it a little arrogant. Also there is a little bit of Celtic stuff in our order, like I say not much, mostly just the respect for the equinoxes and solstices.

It should be noted I've never known much about the G∴D∴, I've mostly been quickly reading on it since making this thread. Our histories have almost nothing on the subject because we were never part of it. As for where we do come from, it was simply one of the adepts of the original order who left when all the infighting started who continued the line in secret. We've never been a large or noteworthy splinter, never had famous names or grand temples. We avoid all of the politics and posturing preferring to remain secret. The world does not need to know of our existence in order that the great work be done.

>>15479
3=8, although our grading system is a little different. 2=9 is water and 3=8 air. *Shrug* I have no idea when they got swapped round. Our grading is much slower paced from what I hear of the G∴D∴. We often spend years in each grade and much longer in the 4=7. 5=6 is very, very rare for us. 6=5 unheard of and there's also no portal grade at all.

The long and short of this is that we take a lot longer with our grades but they also shouldn't be considered directly equivalent. To us even the most enlightened of humans is "just" a 5=6, the rest of the grades only exist as a reminder that they are heights far beyond that which any man has ever reached. We, as a race, have a long, long way to go.

>>15497
That's a good thought, alas my robe is stored in the temple and I live quite a way away. It's just a plain white robe anyway, we don't go in for the fancy stuff.

>>15500
>years in each grade

u wot m8

Outer order is theoretical, it should really only be a few months. If 5=6 is ultra-rare, I highly recommend finding a different order, unless you're being taught Inner Order material in the outer order or something (some groups do this, to be fair).

If you're spending years just with the knowledge lectures and meditations, something is seriously up.

>It's just a plain white robe anyway

Okay, I'm starting to think your order might be somewhat different from traditional G.'.D.'., as outer order robes are black, and inner order robes are white

>. Y'all need to go back and read the part where I said we were distinct from the G∴D∴ which is part of the A∴A∴ which was Crowley's invention, as far as we can tell anyway. He claimed that it wasn't his invention and was an accurate portrayal of how the Golden Dawn was pre-1900

Okay, that is 100% untrue, who told you that?

There are DOZENS of written accounts of the G.'.D.'., Crowley didn't invent it. The reason he used the G.'.D.'. name as part of his A.'.A.'. was that his new order was essentially a reformed version of the G.'.D.'. structure.


I think you're order is a little off the beaten track, mate. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that, but that is definitely not G.'.D or S.'.M.'. as I would know it

That pic looks like an asscrack.

>old white men cosplaying as wizards

Sounds great, OP.

>>15520
>but that is definitely not G.'.D or S.'.M.'. as I would know it
That's what I'm trying to tell you! We have nothing to do with the G∴D∴ aside from the fact that we're distant cousins. I've really tried to make this apparent from the very beginning of this. I probably should have been more clear. Also it might have helped if I'd done more research into the other Golden Dawn orders first. I knew of the G∴D∴ but didn't know much about them and I wasn't aware that others had survived. I really wish I had our histories to hand so I could provide some names, sadly they are also in the temple and I doubt I'd be permitted to remove them anyway. As much as their not covered by my oaths, we do like our secrecy.

Right, from the top. G∴D∴ does not necessarily equal the Golden Dawn. All G∴D∴ temples are Golden Dawn, not all Golden Dawn (i.e. descended from Mathers' Golden Dawn) temples are G∴D∴. Crowley certainly didn't invent the Golden Dawn, but he did invent the G∴D∴. When the original Golden Dawn fractured, it split into a number of groups. There were the big 4, one of which was the A∴A∴ (a subset of which was the G∴D∴), all of which had the famous names behind them but there were also other groups, including ours, which history has forgotten. Many changed their names away from the Golden Dawn. We did not.

Now, here comes the real rub and please I implore everyone I do not want to start up the petty arguments that surround this. We're all doing the same work, let's not bicker. All of the orders, including ours, had slightly different ideas as to how the original Golden Dawn was, including just exactly what the content of the rites were. Of course our order, just like all the others, claims that it has the correct version of the story and the original rites. Of course.

Our version of the story says that Mathers was not being entirely honest when he represented the secret chiefs as living breathing people, he did so because he knew new initiates may be put off to learn that they were taking their cues from otherworldly entities. It also says that Crowley was full of shit in a lot of ways, specifically, ways designed to piss Mathers off. As an aside, it worked rather well, he was fucking furious. We hold that, among the lies told by Crowley was the concept of the inner orders. By doing this, he turned, in the publics eye, the original Golden Dawn into just the lesser part of his A∴A∴. In the course of this he turned our 0=0 grade (which generally takes more than a year and is where we just do the lectures and meditations) into the entirety of the G∴D∴ implying that that was all that Mathers and the original Golden Dawn had ever done.

Apparently he also swapped the water and air grades, which I didn't know until I started reading up after making this thread. This seems really weird to me. It's probably better I don't go into it here though. If I forget remind me to make another post about it later.

Let me tell you, the guy who first formed our little splinter really, really didn't like Crowley. He never wrote an account for our histories himself but one of his students who did seemed to take some pleasure in recounting his teachers views on the subject.

Now just exactly how much of this is true is anybodies guess. For all I know, my teacher may have founded the order 20 minutes before I joined, made all our rites up from whole cloth and written all the accounts in our histories herself with 10 different pens *Grin*.

For those interested our histories consist of a handful of handwritten accounts of whatever people felt was important enough to write down on their deathbeds, they are sparse to say the least and get sparser once all of the interesting infighting was over with. Most of us are rather uninterested in them altogether but there was an initiate in the 80's who tried to make sense of them and provide something of a time line. Personally I wasn't sure how great a job he did so I looked over the original accounts myself a few months ago. I'm glad I did or else I'd have just been as confused as hell at the differences between us and the G∴D∴, I only wish I could remember more. I didn't expect this thread to take such a turn toward history. Oh, also, we do have the names and dates of any initiations performed, which is only about 200 initiates over about 100 years, we were never large.

Now, of course, I can provide 0 proof of this whole thing and there's some fairly big claims here. So by all means apply as much salt as you feel is appropriate.

>>15384
some people have this piercing gaze where they never bring their eyes from your own, I've heard it called the evil eye of the magicians

I had met a sufi mystic with that look a few months ago and its really quite unsettling, as someone with the same piercing gaze i've gotten a lot of comments about it also.

many supposed spiritualists in this area have darting uncertain eyes and they place their individual experiences above what theyre actually doing and their self betterment. Many are quite fat and elderly.

do you believe franz bardons initiation into hermetics is really a way to self initiate oneself, or do you merely use initiation as a ritual as say the baptists use baptism as their initiation ritual?

>>15364
I want to join an order like yours Q.Q
The only ones around here are a cash grab and advertise.

Do you guys ever get into witchcraft? I've checked out a few european and old hindu sources, from the cult of Durga to the cultis of zorostar, and they seem interesting; if, albiet a bit dark.

>>15562
The last man on Earth has the most freedom of all.

Restructure your priorities.

>>15534
Tell all u know about Crowley and mathers' magical duels please

Your thread made me look into what sort of occult groups are in my country and let me tell you OP, it doesn't look good.
A whole bunch of pagans and some retarded new age cults noone heard about and a feminist wiccan club. All of the above ask for money to become a member.

I've already had very good success with magic and have managed to transform my character to the better all without a master and I wonder if it truly is as important as all the order members claim for it to be to have one.

I'm not sure how much can you reveal due to your vows but I'd like to know how exactly you originally met the members of your order and what field of mundane work are they in?

>>15557
It's less in the gaze and more just a sense I get looking into peoples eyes. It's a talent I've had since long before I met the order, which suggests that perhaps it was just my way of seeing things while still convincing myself that there was nothing magic going on here, no sir. It's not something I was ever taught or that I've heard others speak of. So who knows? Maybe it's just my brand of aura reading that happens to be totally defeated by sunglasses.

I don't know anything about Franz Bardon but, personally, I'd stay away from self initiation in general. Initiation is a difficult thing and it's generally best if you have someone who knows what they're doing. Like I said, if you just focus on improving eventually you'll initiate yourself without even thinking about it. It will take a lot longer but that's fine. This is not a race. Better to take it slow and get it right. All that said, far be it from me to tell you what to do.

Which brings us nicely to >>15562
>So i ask you. are you another shepard, wishing to guide humanity for your own purpose out of a misguided sense of philanthropy or are you liberator?
Neither. We take no interest in politics. We teach those few who come to us seeking guidance and allow the rest of the world to do as it will. We impose nothing upon anyone but nor do we fight against the impositions laid upon others. The orders stance on the subject is best summed up as "let it be".

My personal stance, however, aligns somewhat with yours. Although I don't agree that all shepherds are misguided. For most of history, we have needed our shepherds to guide us, to ensure that we did not tear ourselves apart with pointless bickering. Was this arrogant of them to think that they were above other men? Yes. Was it hypocritical of them to break the rules that they would impose upon others? Yes. Was it helpful, perhaps even necessary, for those who had the vision to do so? Yes. Is it a crutch, a stopgap measure to prevent the worst that humanity has to offer until we grow the hell up enough to realise that this is not the way? Certainly. Is the very act of being shepherded slowing down such realisations? Yes. Does it halt our progress and mean that we will never reach such a stage? No. The time is coming.

The only question, the only point on which wise men ever truly disagree is the question of when. Are we ready? I hope that the answer is yes, although the state of the world perhaps suggests otherwise, make your own decision there is truly no right answer. Either way the order does not involve itself in this battle, to us it is simply another distraction. I can tell you with a certainty that, in time, your side will win. We all know that, even the NWO know that, it has never been up for debate.

Like I say though, my personal feelings align with yours, in my eyes, the world could use a little more freedom. Sure, it's going to cause a lot of pain and death but we'll survive and come out stronger for it. That said, I'm rather enjoying my (how did you guys put it?) brown pill.

I must say I really like that pill chart. Obviously you can't easily split people into 6 simple categories with any real accuracy, but that's true of anything trying to divide people up like that. I don't have much care for the pills beyond the first 6 however, the axis of enlightened/unenlightened and positive/negative/neutral were just fine. Adding more only confuses things.

>>15564
Seek and you will find. Have patience and go out and meet people. Who knows what you'll find?

Remember that you do not need an order or anything else for that matter. Enlightenment is your birthright, all of the tools that you need to reach it have always been yours and they cannot be taken from you.

I have a story for you, from one of our other initiates. When he was younger he felt the call of the mysteries. He decided to travel to the east across India in search of wisdom. He travelled for months and found nothing, eventually his spirit broke and he returned to England. On the day of his return he went for tea with his sister (very English I know) to cheer himself up and she, by happenstance, had a friend of hers visiting. He told the story of his journey across India and his disappointment that he had found nothing. The friend told him that she was very interested in his story and wondered if they could speak a little in private. Of course, she invited him to join our order. Seek and you will find, although not necessarily what you were looking for.

>Do you guys ever get into witchcraft?
No, but I suppose it depends what you mean by witchcraft. There are a thousand, thousand paths and none are better than any other. In the end they all lead to the same place, the route we take to reach it hardly matters.

Post too long, continued…

>>15573
Not much at all. By the time they were properly feuding our order had nothing to do with either of them. I can tell you that I find the very concept petty. Better to ignore your enemies than waste time with such things. You may be able to mess with their mundane lives a little but when it comes to matters of the mind and soul it's inevitably going to be a stand off (assuming both participants are at all competent). You're a lot more likely to accidentally hurt yourself than actually hurt a well guarded opponent. I mean look at the actual results of this "duel". Mathers dies nearly two decades later and of course Crowley takes the credit. Well fought lads *eye roll*.

>>15590
>All of the above ask for money to become a member.
Ignore them. In the 4 years I have been with the order my only relevant expenses have been to occasionally chip in for incense and the like. In total it's probably come to less than £20. As general advice never trust anyone who goes after your wallet or tries to tell you who your friends are.

>I wonder if it truly is as important as all the order members claim for it to be to have one.
Nah, at least I don't think so. I'm sure others will disagree. Don't get me wrong the order has been great for me learning and growing, but they weren't necessary. As I said before, you were born with every tool that you need.

>I'd like to know how exactly you originally met the members of your order and what field of mundane work are they in?
I explained how I met them as one of the first questions >>15371 , I'll not tell the story again. As for what field of work, all sorts. We all lead perfectly normal lives (well, maybe not perfectly *grin*) alongside our work with the order. Like I say nobody is making any money from this and we all have bills to pay. It's why I found it rather humourous when someone mentioned people from other orders being "outed" as carpet cleaners and tour bus guides. Ok? What's wrong with cleaning carpets?

>>15534
>That's what I'm trying to tell you! We have nothing to do with the G∴D∴ aside from the fact that we're distant cousins. I've really tried to make this apparent from the very beginning of this

Yeah, given that this thread is about the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, you can see why I was a bit confused

>Right, from the top. G∴D∴ does not necessarily equal the Golden Dawn. All G∴D∴ temples are Golden Dawn, not all Golden Dawn (i.e. descended from Mathers' Golden Dawn) temples are G∴D∴. Crowley certainly didn't invent the Golden Dawn, but he did invent the G∴D∴. When the original Golden Dawn fractured, it split into a number of groups. There were the big 4, one of which was the A∴A∴ (a subset of which was the G∴D∴), all of which had the famous names behind them but there were also other groups, including ours, which history has forgotten. Many changed their names away from the Golden Dawn. We did not.

To clarify, .'. tends to be an occult way of writing abbreviated names. When I say G.'.D.'., I mean Golden Dawn, just as S.'.M.'. means Stella Matutina. I'm not really sure why, but this is the way it is commonly written. As such, G.'.D.'. simply means Golden Dawn, it doesn't denote Crowley's version specifically.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but I really think you need to do a bit of basic reading on the topic, that's a pretty wacky version of the history right there.



> We hold that, among the lies told by Crowley was the concept of the inner orders

What? You mean you're being told that the existence of the RR et AC was something Crowley made up…despite there being not only papers released from it, but multiple attestations that it existed from different sources?

>Let me tell you, the guy who first formed our little splinter really, really didn't like Crowley

Yeah, some GDers really tend to sperg about him, I've encountered that before



So if you don't have an inner order, and spend years in each grade, what kind of work is involved in your grades?

>>15590
>how exactly you originally met the members of your order

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding in this thread, the GD isn't secret, most GD orders will have a website with a big 'apply' section on it, you just apply and they interview you if they think you're suitable, that's it.

GD is the outer order, so anyone can join, there's no big thing. RR et AC is the inner order, that's invitation only for people who have completed the Portal grade

>>15564
>Do you guys ever get into witchcraft?

Witchcraft and ceremonial magic are two very different traditions.

Witchcraft is fascinating, but if you're looking into it, stay away from wicca, and look towards people more like Peter Paddon, Andrew Chumbley, Nigel Jackson and Robert Cochrane

>>15591
what is initiation then?

>>15643
Just for the record, I haven't been told a thing. As I've said, with the exception of myself (and one other initiate, he's still technically around, but cannot travel for health reasons) there's nobody else in the order with any interest in our history. Most of this is either directly from the accounts we have or my own conjecture thereof and it does appear that I've made some mistakes in that regard. It should be noted I've only read through the accounts once a few months ago, they're about 30 pages long and dry as all hell.

I assumed adding the ∴ symbols after things was Crowley's invention. Tons of people do it now but I can't find anyone doing it before him which is why I used it strictly to refer to Crowley's version of the order. It's not something we've ever done. I don't think Stella Matutina did it in the early days either.

From what I read today Mathers did do initiations for the inner order, after he left for France. My bad on that regard, I had assumed it was Crowley. Apparently, we either split from the order before that or just rejected his claims afterwards. *Shrug* I don't know. If there's a lesson I should take from this it's to be sure that I know what I'm talking about before I speak (also don't just blame shit on Crowley *Grin*).

>So if you don't have an inner order, and spend years in each grade, what kind of work is involved in your grades?
Different people pick up different things and as I said before we're rather hands off with regard to most of our learning. We're encouraged to experiment. I'll mention now that each grade comes with one extra skill that I'm not at liberty to discuss. That, plus the general mindset (or consciousness as we say) of the grade is all that's really considered required learning. It should be noted that the consciousness is considered by far the most important part. The tricks may sound more exciting, but they are just petty tricks.

1=10 is the physical, that doesn't necessarily mean it's just physical things but more things with a physical or mundane application. I learnt how to speak in a commanding way, such that people tend to do as I ask before they really consider it. I also learnt to exert a strong animal magnetism. I'm sure you can figure out the uses for that yourselves. Moreover, the consciousness is strong, steady and immovable, emphasising action and commanding respect.

2=9 is the emotional. I must confess I was never very good at this one. It comes in two phases. The first is harrowing, utterly harrowing. Many choose to leave the order at this point. It was the worst year of my life by far. Within two days of my initiation I was a mess. I don't even know how to begin to describe the crushing sense of despair and loss. I struggled and I toiled and did all that I could to shake it from me all to no avail. There came a point where, beaten and broken, I finally accepted that this was how things were and that this feeling would be with me eternally and in a sudden rush of clarity I felt wondrously free. In an instant all of the past years weight was lifted and never have I felt so good as I did in that eternal moment. Since then such feelings have never troubled me in the slightest.

The second part of the grade was far more placid and peaceful. I learnt to mentally connect with people, get a sense of their basic mood and send simple messages. I learnt to see peoples emotions in their eyes. I learnt to hide myself from such things and to project false emotion. It was also the time I started to have clairvoyant visions. It was never something I intended and I can only describe it as an incredibly strong sense of reverse deja vu. It comes without warning and invariably involves me looking ahead to see myself looking back if you see what I mean. During both times (when I first have the vision and when it "comes true") I'm completely unable to discern when I am (as in I don't know if I'm currently the me looking forward or the me looking back, they tend to blend together as one) and the whole thing can be quite overwhelming. I never really got the hang of it. I need to stop being so disconcerted by it that I just stand there like an idiot for a few seconds and occasionally seeing something other than the most utterly mundane and boring circumstances would be nice. I can see no rhyme or reason behind what I see. It has never been anything of any importance.

The consciousness of the grade is one of peaceful, boundless compassion, sensitive and caring. I also learnt the theory behind ritual, thoughtforms and many of the lesser astral entities during this time but that's not something specific to this grade.

More coming…

3=8 is the mental and the grade I'm currently in now. I learnt how to make threads on /fringe/ and pretty much jack all else so far. I've not been doing it long. The consciousness seems mercurial to say the least. I am at times rather dour and thoughtful but can very quickly become lighthearted and playful. In any case, I'm still somewhat coming to terms with this grade so we'll see.

4=7 is the spiritual. I'll let y'all know in a few years.

>>15650
It's a ceremony (or more accurately a thousand ceremonies across the history of man) but also the results of those ceremonies. It marks you as a magician in the eyes of the universe (and more than a few things besides). I saw significant changes in both my thinking and my general life after my initiation.

>>15743
>hostile esoteric groups
You do not understand them. They are not hostile. They love you. They truly love you. They love you like a mother loves her child. They just want to protect you and give you a nice safe world for you to grow up in. Gradually humanity is going to grow up and gradually they will gracefully step aside. That's why you're going to win because there will come a time when they are no longer needed. That said, by all means continue your fight against them, rebellion always was a part of growing up after all and I do happen to think it's a little arrogant of them to treat the rest of the world as if they were children and I worry that some perhaps have fallen a little from their paths and are reluctant to step aside as they see humanity grow.

>this whole thread

tl;dr

>>16737
You sure showed them, anon

>>16844
>your post

ts;dr

>>15761
>>15761
Gimme all the reading materials.

A.:.A.:. Had a book list. Stalin said u can know someone by knowing What they read. And he robbed banks

Im already mercurial, saturnine, jovial, spiritual, bombastic and lunarautistic. I'm ready for the knowledge

Do u guys have good methods for Loosh acquisition? Who is your best healer?

Thoughts on buddhism and hiduism ideas of enlightenment?

>>16883
Same goal as the Western tradition, just approached in a different way.

It always makes me cringe when people say 'omg eastern religions are SO spiritual', we have just as good material in the West, most people just don't bother researching it

I heard that the golden dawn controls freemasonry, is this true?

>>15557
>many supposed spiritualists in this area have darting uncertain eyes and they place their individual experiences above what theyre actually doing and their self betterment. Many are quite fat and elderly.

I know this seems like a strangely specific thing to ask, but did they have any other mannerisms besides what you've mentioned? You know, granted you've observed them.

>>17027
Nope.

The original founders were masons (or, to be more accurate, they were SRIA members, and thus were by definition also masons), but the whole reason the order was set up was to put occult knowledge into practice, which masonry wasn't doing (also, to admit women, which masonry doesn't)

There's an obvious masonic influence in the grade rituals (again, the founders were masons, so they went with what they knew), but other than that, we have pretty much zero to do with them