/fringe/ - Fringe

>>18365
Someone asked me a question like this on /pol/ the other day I'll copy pasta the small response I made.

/pollack/ Question: I'm very interested in Tantric/Vajrayana Buddhism…. Do you have any key texts/a reading list that you'd recommend?

Answer: Really good text that I scanned a while ago about the nature of the Demiurge in Tantric Buddhist symbolism, all of the deities in its canon are related to this story in one way or another 'The Subjugation of Rudra', it's an incredible read check it out:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/179529733/The-Subjugation-of-Rudra

But as for Tantra as a whole, it's really divided up sort of like a tower, with different levels of practice and study supporting the whole structure of the Canon. It sort of looks like this:

Dzogchen/Ati Yoga
Higher Tantras
Lower Tantras
Mahayana Canon - especially Madhyamaka and the works of Nagarjuna (READ MULAMADHYAMAKAKARIKA)
Pali Canon/Theravada Buddhist philosophy

If you want a good start check out the Mulamadhyamakakarika, absolutely genius-tier philosophy on par with Plato: http://www.scribd.com/…/Jay-L-Garfield-The-Fundamental-Wisd…

On top of that if you're interested in Tantra itself you can take an actual Abhiseka [empowerment] and try to generate yourself as a Deity like Avalokitesvara, Green Tara, Vajrapani, Vajrakilaya (recommend Vajrakilaya for maximum wrathful redpills)

I have a link to Tantric empowerments saved on my YT channel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73yi0_DG3hk
After you take an empowerment you can then begin to actually practice Tantric Buddhist Sadhana, just type "Sadhana for Deity X" into Google and you'll find a ton of them.

ON TOP OF THAT you have the Dzogchen treatises, anything by Longchenpa is golden, Keith Dowman has a long list of great translated Dzogchen texts, you can read tidbits of them here: http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/index.htm

"No matter how we feel, we abide in the nature of mind;
No matter how we live, we stay in the nature of mind;
No matter how we move, we move in the nature of mind.
In luminous spaciousness, coming and going are impossible –
No movement in the victors’ dimension!"

>>18365
In general you can start with anything from the Pali Canon, the discourses of Sakyamuni Buddha. There's plenty of Theravada Buddhist canons available everywhere. But I also highly recommend several Mahayana Sutras to broaden the true understanding of Buddha's words:

Mulamadhyamakakarika - This book is the foundation of all Mahayana thought
Uttaratantra Shastra - This text eliminates misconceptions of Madhyamaka
Dharamadhatustava (and all of Nagarjuna's other 'short' texts
Dharmadhatuvibhanga - Further elaboration of Madhyamaka thought (Alan Watts talks a lot about madhyamaka btw)
Lankavatara Sutra - Mind Only 'Yogacara' school
Lotus Sutra [Saddharmapundarika] - Bodhisattva activity
Diamond Sutra
Shantideva's Bodhisattvacaryavatara
Vimalkirti Sutra is also extremely good and pithy
'Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand' by Pabongka Rinpoche - Lamrim canon, absolutely essential Mahayana literature

After that there's tons of periphery sutras and texts that are also good.

Tantric practice must be built on top of a foundation of these texts.

>>18406
1. Sravaka spotted .. You really think that the Monks & Arahats during the first schisms who wanted to include Mahayana sutras were just a bunch of power-hungry idiots? Do you actually believe that the Buddha isn't beyond coming and going and that the Buddha only exists when he appears on the earth for the sake of beings? I don't find anything in Mahayana that goes outside of the foundations which it was built on in early periods. If anything in the Mahayana or Tantra would be outside of something in Theravada Buddhism, it wouldn't be there.

2. This obnoxious sound-hearer who doesn't understand the Buddha-nature is right >>18365 Check out "Karmapa's Middle Way" for a thorough elaboration on the Sautantrika, Vaibhasika, Yogacara, and finally Madhyamaka philosophies. You can also study the commentary on the Jay Garfield version of Mulamadhyamakakarika for additional reference. But studying the preceding 3 systems is good if you really want to understand Madhyamaka.

3.
>Sound-hearer calling a Tantrika a pleb

top chuckle m80

I practiced Buddhism for some time before I got into occultism. Such a great tradition it is!

Your thoughts on Zen? Why did you choose Vajrayana and what have you learned and experienced by following it? And why did you embrace Buddhism? Do you agree that Tibetan Buddhist headwear is the best headwear there is?

Thank you.

>>18516
Yes, as Zen was the result of the interplay of Taoism and Mahayana Buddhism, maybe moreover the former as Buddhist terms were replaced with Taoist ones. Personally I find the end result (Zen) charming and quirky, but it's better to study Taoism and Mahayanaism separately, as their own traditions. . . but the two traditions go along quite well, I say.

>>18476
OP here

>Your thoughts on Zen?

There was a very famous debate between a Chinese Chan [Zen] master and a traditional Indian Mahayana Buddhist master shortly after Guru Rinpoche [aka Padmasambhava] caused the dharma to flourish in Tibet. During that debate it was decided that the 'gradual approach' to enlightenment in the classical Mahayana tradition is generally more preferable to the 'instant approach' of Zen. I agree with that, Buddha himself taught that only a small minority of the overall population can understand Buddhism, much less then can everybody understand Zen directly and attain with it. That's evidenced now in the West with all these spaced out "non-dualists" who preach their space gospel of spaciness while not being firmly rooted in actually developing along the Dasabhumis [10 foundations of enlightenment]. Buddhism, especially Mahayana, is about an overall development of character, virtue, morality, compassion, patience, concentration, and wisdom. I think the traditional gradual approach is much more preferable for a well-rounded ascension up the path rather than trying to strike it all with one blow by doing Zazen all day long. That being said, Zen just means Dhyana, meditation, and meditation isn't lacking in any school of Buddhism, although the gradual process is lacking in Zen. In Tibetan Buddhism at the very highest stage of attainment there's Ati Yoga/Dzogchen, which is basically the same as Zen, except you have to follow the gradual path of sutra and tantra before you can reach it.

>>18476

>Why did you choose Vajrayana and what have you learned and experienced by following it?

For starters, back around 2009 or so when I started meditating after running into some esoteric stuff that made sense to me I experienced sort of a lightning bolt which made me feel kind of static electricity through the center of my body. Gradually the electricity became more and more pronounced and it had an intoxicating effect during meditation, and even produced a visionary experience in my mind.. Something like cartoons morphing inside of a rainbow kaleidoscope.. Tibetan Buddhism calls this the Jalu or the Sambhogakaya. I tried to study all sorts of traditions to understand this world that's hidden to people and I even made a Youtube channel which got a lot of traction [http://www.youtube.com/shaktipatseer2] .. I practiced Vaisnavism for a while [Hindu sect devoted to Visnu] but that didn't pan out and I discovered what I was looking for in Vajrayana. Vajrayana's philosophical system built on Madhyamaka makes your mind utterly clear and at ease when you understand it, and it's Tantric system is something that I could follow like a road map to ensure that the Kundalini/Tummo is developed in the way that it needs to be. Those were the original things that attracted me. Then I continued to plunge into the various Tantric practices and other, sometimes even higher philosophies of Vajrayana. Overall I feel that Vajrayana itself is the highest, most pure, and correct esoteric system not only to originate out of India but to originate out of the whole world. Now that there's Lamas giving empowerments in the West you'd have to be either ignorant or extremely misinformed not to take advantage of it!

>>18577

Also what I've learned and experienced. The abhiseka/empowerment ritual given by the Lama invokes the blessing in the form of a type of energy and consciousness which flows down from all of the previous masters that have come before the Lama in your lineage. This is something I can't really describe in words but it's extremely extremely potent! My practice and experience of Gnosis doubled and tripled after I took refuge, empowerment, and began practicing the 'self-generating as the deity' Sadhanas. I LOVE the generation sadhanas, where you perform an elaborate esoteric ritual using visualizations, mantras, symbolism (obviously), invocations etc. in order to invoke a deity and through that vision to merge into the Dharmadhatu, and dissolve again as emptiness. These type of Sadhanas have an extraordinary effect on your psyche and how you view yourself; as a mandala of infinite deities.

Pic related is one of my favorite deities, Acalanath Vidyaraja, "Immovable King of Light".

>>18476

>And why did you embrace Buddhism?

For a long time I just studied all sorts of traditions and tried to piece them in my head, but even though different traditions might have similar features, if you just clump them all into one realization it gets foggy and misleading. They need to be understood on their own terms. In that sense I preferred Buddhism's cosmology and philosophy to Hinduism or the randomness of Occultism (I would never exclusively follow a path that had no guru-disciple lineage anyway). If you understand Mahayana thought on its own terms, it's absolutely beautiful and needs nothing else to supplement it. I've flimflammed and changed directions over the years, as is evident by my Youtube channel which has videos for any type of esoteric thing you can think of.. But now I am completely utterly content with the trinity of Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhadharma.

>Do you agree that Tibetan Buddhist headwear is the best headwear there is?

YES :D.. But not that 'reformist' Gelugpa crap

What siddhis does your lama got

>>18640
What matters is you find a center that hosts a sanctioned lineage, Gelug, Kagyu, Sakya, Nyingma. Avoid the 'Shambhala' centers, the 'New Kadampa' centers though because they're cults essentially. Either way when you pick one make sure that you take time to investigate and scope it out before asking the Lama for refuge.

Jewel Heart Center is very good.. Gelek Rinpoche is a good teacher
Address : 260 W. Broadway, # IG, New York, NY 10013
Phone : (212) 966-2807
Email : diana@lostandfound.org
http://www.jewelheart.org/


Kagyu center, Kagyu is more meditation-tantra based and Gelug is heavliy oriented towards the Sutras.
http://www.utbf.org [Kagyu, Tibetan]
About United Trungram Buddhist Fellowship - a worldwide organization providing teachings, meditation guidance and engaged in social welfare work. It follows the Trungram Tradition of the Kagyu School of Vajrayana Buddhism.
Contact: (USA/NEW YORK) frank lin at linmou@hotmail.com


Kagyu Thubten Choling [Tibetan Kagyu]
Address : 245 Sheafe Road, Wappingers Falls, NY 12590
Phone : (845) 297-3843
Email : office@kagyu.com
http://www.kagyu.com/


This is a Nyingma center, they are very oriented around Tantra, and Dzogchen, some say that they were influenced some by shamanic practices of Bon in Tibet.
Padmasambhava Buddhist Centre [Tibetan, Nyingmapa]
Address : 618 Buddha Hwy, Sidney Center, NY 13839
Phone : (212) 683-4958, (607) 865-8068
Email : jowozegyal@hotmail.com
http://www.padmasambhava.org/

>>18660
They have a Vajrakilaya and Green Tara practice each sunday, you can take one of Garchen Rinpoche's online empowerments actually and attend the sadhana practice.

Vajrakilaya Empowerment:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/26843451

White Tara & Green Tara Empowerments:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/32694075

After you have taken the empowerment, you're permitted to generate yourself as the deity.. Just type in "Vajrakilaya Sadhana" or "Green Tara Sadhana .pdf" in google and you'll find plenty of them.

While you're doing that take a look at some of the texts that I mentioned in this thread, sutra and tantra are practiced one with the other.

>>18577
>>18579
Thank you for your detailed answers.

You know, it's pretty funny. Even though I've explored all sorts of traditions, I still seem to return to Buddhism and think "how Buddha would handle this and this situation". I "renounced" Buddhism because I wanted to explore different belief systems and expand my views, though it's apparent to me that I haven't actually renounced it at all!

Go around, around, around…