/fringe/ - Fringe

All of my cousins in Europe are witches but I am not in contact with them so it doesn't matter.

I am doing fine developing my powers on my own anyways.

>>28356
It might be worthwhile checking out >>>/asatru/, the subject of Seidr (Northern Heathen witchcraft) sometimes comes up.

Seek out Varg Vikernes's book Sorcery And Religion In Ancient Scandinavia.

This magickal group combines study of runes with seidr and chaos magick, they have released a few books plus the interviews are interesting (/Asatru/ think Stephen Edred Flowers is a degenerate though):
http://www.rune-gild.org/

>>28396
Chaos magic is basic introductory shit, which I tend to frown upon for its lack of foundation in higher esoterica. The system I work within has a focus on development of the Qabalah and Qllipoth within the self. Also I find most of the 'runes' people to be weak, akin to the Greeks trying to use Egyptian hieroglyphs. 'Ancient' sorcery is usually midwife stuff; using native plants of the land to heal/poison, using animals for similar reasons, etc. I have a direct communion with the plant and animals with which I work, so reading such a book would be a waste of time.

I have also spoken extensively with Sa'ani shaman though. (nordic) She was covered head to toe in scarification tattoos, and knew her shit. She also directly denounced people who use runes for 'magic'. I'd take a conversation with her over any religion book…

>>28417
And, by the way, did you mean "a Sami shaman"?

>>28417

You mean greco-roman mystery tradition stuff?

Not sure exactly what you are seeking, I guess you want advice from others who are initiated.

Also relying on Jewish mysticism seems a bit odd if you are looking for genuine pre-Christian European stuff.

>>28417
Please write more. It sounds interesting.

>>28420
The kabbalah is only jewish to those who can't see beyond Israel. The current I work within is not Roman in the slightest. Think more the pyramid texts of King Unas…
I am not seeking advice, but am starting a general witchcraft thread… It's interesting how you interpreted my post.

>>28419
I was introduced to this shaman via a uni teacher. As far as I know it's "Sa'ani", the pronunciation was "sa-ah-nee". I looked up the Sami people though, I'm guessing their relations are like the NA aboriginals. Most people don't know the difference between an Algonkian and a Mohawk, perhaps Sa'ani is a tribe or group within the Sami people.

>>28418
Primalcraft, in terms of books is what you're looking for if you want to start practicing this kind of thing. Any local Native groups, if they're accepting would be ideal as well, I learned the local tradition quite thoroughly before being initiated into witchcraft.

>>28417
>>28419
Sami are not culturally (or ethnically) Norse heathen, so it is understandable that they would not accept the efficacy of using runes for magickal powers.

>>28438
Seidr was serious business btw, not low tier sympathetic magick, problem is the lineage has been broken for hundreds of years.

>>28356
Problem with esoteric pre-Christian practices is even if practiced in secret they required a degree of support from the greater community.

As an increasingly persecuting church emerged some of the traditions lived on in more benign folkways (which may be able to be decoded somewhat). Sadly this makes reconstructing exoteric society tricky to piece together let alone the esoteric.

It is also hard to separate propaganda and hysteria from genuine customs outside of more mundane herbalism and healing.

Their may be some genuine shamanic traditions throughout remote parts of Eastern Europe as well as pockets of Sami populations, but whether Sami are culturally European and therefore part of a general pre-Christian tradition is questionable.

Good luck.

>>28438

Yeah, that's where the ear to mouth tradition comes in. For the majority, runes are like pseudo tarot cards. For the undergrounds sects, runes retain their original uses.

>>28435
>interested in hidden Egyptian wisdom it may be worth while checking out Greco-Roman material

Was that sarcasm? I hear if you want to learn about Native Americans you ask the British for their history…

Graeco-roman metaphysics deteriorated heavily from their Egyptian forefathers. The emphasis, as you can trace with the beliefs of their philosophers degenerated to a physical level. Look at the stark difference even between Aristotle and Plato… Also compare the difference between Egyptian and Graeco reliefs, statues and temples… the emphasis became on the body.

Philosophy is not even a subject within this practice, that's reserved for armchairs. Witchcraft is practical and focuses on a very real, physical transmutation of the self by shedding this tower of physicality (Greeks…) to become one with the spirit world. It's not about transcendence, but a deep connection and coexistence with multiple layers of the subtle reality.

>>28441
For the record, the tradition I practice has its origins in Spain and Portugal. The Sami relation was a learning experience from someone of a different practice than myself.

>>28423
Tidied up post (multitasking so lacking some reading comprehension atm)

So you are an initiate into a witchcraft tradition, but allow other traditions to inform your practice? I see.

I am aware the kabbalah is not exclusively Jewish (most modern kabbalic knowledge has been heavily influenced by medieval Jewish mystics though).

I did not interpret your post as wanting to seek out Greco-Roman mysteries, but since you shot down my heathen recommendations I was at a bit of a loss. If you are interested in hidden Egyptian wisdom it may be worth while checking out Greco-Roman material as there was esoteric exchange between those civilizations and a lot of the primary Egyptian sources are lost.

Check out the writings of Iamblichus, he was a Neoplatonic philosopher (Syrian, culturally Greek/Roman) (may be some philosophical overlap with your Kabbalah inquires) who wrote about the central place of magick and ritual in society and was likely initiated into the secret societies of the time. He was an avid Egyptophile, his text des mysteriis is an imagined exchange between an Egyptian priest (I think) and one of his philosophical rivals.

Background info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iamblichus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Mysteries_of_the_Egyptians,_Chaldeans,_and_Assyrians
http://www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/iambl_th.htm
Decent book explaining his philosophy, worldview in context:
http://www.amazon.com/Theurgy-Soul-Neoplatonism-Iamblichus-2nd/dp/1621380637/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1426875914&sr=1-8&keywords=iamblichus

>>28444
Other traditions don't inform my practice… It was like studying, for the fun of it…

I have no inquiries on the Kabbalah…

Your perception is very interesting to me.

>>28442
That is Iamblichus in a nutshell.

Plotinus was a life denyer, Iamblichus was into arcane holism and denounced those who thought that Plato was just talking about abstract ideas or morality, he interpreted it as a transformative practice which would be esoteric at the higher levels, ritual heavy.

I would be surprised if you were to denounce Iamblichus if you knew more about him, he was very much against the grain of his contemporaries, sought ancient knowledge and wanted to return his society to a more profound stage.

The Greek and Roman mysteries were well outside of the cult of the material and mainstream culture, in fact the early stages were ascetic and life-denying (however this was only a preliminary stage to shed false view and clinging to the ego).

Where do you seek Egyptian wisdom?

>>28445
>>28445
> The system I work within has a focus on development of the Qabalah and Qllipoth within the self.
>Other traditions don't inform my practice…
I thought this would suggest a kabbalic influence, could you elaborate on these points so I can correct my confusion and better understand your approach?

>>28356
Witchcraft always seemed like edgy teenager shit to me. This is probably due to wicca though.

>>28449
The problem as always is lineage and lack of substantive knowledge.

So what it is becomes a bit of an imaginative free-for-all for a lot of people.

Rolled 6, 1, 1 = 8 (3d6)

>>28451
So it becomes a bit*

>>28457

Is this "real" witchcraft based on any tradition or Smith's personal gnosis?

>>28457

>Is this "real" witchcraft based on any tradition or Smith's personal gnosis?

As far as witchcraft is concerned is it not a bit of a broad umbrella to combine High Left-Hand Path Magick with practices like shamanism?

Is witchcraft just a catch-call for all darker paths?

>>28459

From the site

>I do not claim any ancient lineage through my ancestors, nor do I claim heritage through coven initiation. The consumate journey upon this path is taken at the level of the soul, far beyond the ego and politics of human minds. It is for this reason that direct contact with the spirits and Gods of the Ancient Arte, both Empyrean and Infernal, is essential for those who wish to truly advance upon the path of the Dark Queen.

I have no idea what you mean by 'real' witchcraft, by the way. If you mean with that some path that has been transfered within family from the medieval times, well, honestly, I dont think that kind of thing even exists in modern world anymore. From my personal studies, most of the witchcraft paths, both wiccan and non wiccan, loan heavily from other paths too and while some claim to have proper lineage, you can clearly see the influence of other authors like crowley and so forth.

To me, what Smith has written is closest to the kind of witchcraft I have looked for, even though it seems to be completely Smith's personal gnosis. I dont think that lessens the path at all. After all, all paths began as someones personal gnosis, right?

>>28463
I agree entirely.

Just asking since the OP is only interested in troo kvlt esoterica from the depths of ancient Europe past down in secret in an unbreakable chain, in spite of using medieval Jewish mystic terminology within his authentic witchery path.

I have a wicca.rar from leaked to.bz torrents.

Can someone look through this list and see if any are worthwhile?

https://mega.co.nz/#!70YnRIzb!iltOQXzmrvi8SF_WvFTeEQZhVt0xCyBq-t0z4ZopJ1Y

I'm looking from something from which to develop more personal power.

LHP seems too teenage and edgy, maybe I'm just being judgemental based on a stereotype.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

I'd like to karmically kick a few people in the nuts and build a relationship with a protective deity.

>>28469

(I'm asking here because this thread seems appropraite)

>>28468

Heres greentexted the pieces I know are worthwile. Do note that some of them are really advanced, meaning that I don't understand much of them and some only contain tiny bits of useful material while other stuff in the books can gladly be discarded. That said, I leave you to do your own research on the matter and find your own path, I am not one to forche anything down anyones throat. Make up your own mind what is worthwile for you.

>Andrew Chumbley - Opuscula Magica.pdf
>Andrew Chumbley - The Rite of Amethystine Light [OCR Scan - 1 PDF].pdf
>Andrew.Chumbley-Qutub.pdf
>Call of the Horned Piper.pdf
>Chumbley, Andrew - A Lover's Call to The Angel of Witchblood.pdf
>Gothic Grimoire - Konstantinos.pdf
>Konstantinos - Nocturnal Witchcraft.pdf
>Mark Smith - Queen Of Hell.pdf

At least those. I gotta be honest with you, I didnt go through the thing with fine toothed comb because it has way too much shit in it for me to bother. Also, due to the inconsistent naming, some I know might have slipped through. But those should get you started. I can also give you few other books Ive read and think are good if you are searching your way, if you want.

>>28471

Thanks, it's partly for the benefit of all via the mega I run and partly for my own path.

I feel kinda drawn to witchcraft for some reason at the moment so suggestions would be appreciated.

>>28465

Hehe, honestly, when I started to look into witchcraft I was in same position as OP. I think that comes from being anti-wiccan yet having interest in witchcraft and as such, you look for the traditional thing instead of the modern interepration. Saddly for OP, those traditional lineages are mostly dead or utterly secret.

>>28457
I've advanced quite far within his system. It parallels many traditions that focus on Kem.

For anyone interested in real witchcraft, this particular path will smash your worldview into little pieces and leave you to pick them up and weave them into a new being. This path is intense, and will yield results beyond what most people are comfortable with.

As for downloading pdfs of his books… It's not necessarily a /bad/ idea, but it is against the tradition. I own physical copies of his work, and believe me, its a whole 'nother world compared to just having text.

>>28471
Add to that list The Azoetia, Qabbalah, Qllipoth and Goetic Evocation, and The Seven Shades of Solitude.

>>28469
>LHP seems too teenage and edgy
>wants to be a karmic force

>>28465
Funny, I don't remember claiming any lineage whatsoever…
Your perceptions of me are becoming more apparent, provoked by my aggressive responses to you. You are mistaking my arrogance and scorn for ignorance.

>>28473
Secret? Isn't everything a secret nowadays? Just go out into the world, and seek with true and strong Thelema. If you were in "same position as OP" you would be comfortably situated within a practice lol…

>wants to be a karmic force

I guess wanting to right wrongs with magic is teenage, but I don't have grandiose dreams of being a karmic force, more like it feels better doing something than nothing.

>>28471
>>28474

These will be going up when ritual magic is done uploading. Might end up uploading all the wicca stuff regardless anyway, but these will be going into a witchcraft folder.

>>28474

What would you say to a person who has had practically no practical magickal expirience (not even circle casting) yet after reading through dozens of grimoires and about dozens of different paths feels that the primal craft is the only viable one to him?

I have been only in contact about this with Mark himself and he basically said 'go ahead' so I kinda want a second opinion from someone who is a practioner.

>As for downloading pdfs of his books… It's not necessarily a /bad/ idea, but it is against the tradition. I own physical copies of his work, and believe me, its a whole 'nother world compared to just having text.

Seeing that Mark sent me the primary parts of Queen of Hell and The Red King to me as pdf's for self initiation path, I don't think owning the books is necessary and the important parts are in the text and rituals itself. Also, I think pdf's are good way to see if you feel at comfort with the path at all, instead of paying 500+ dollars for books you end up being afraid of or hating or whatever.

Also, thanks for the book recommendations, will check those out. Have already checked few of them but few are new.

>>28476

>Secret? Isn't everything a secret nowadays? Just go out into the world, and seek with true and strong Thelema. If you were in "same position as OP" you would be comfortably situated within a practice lol…

I've no idea if you understood what I said nor did I understand what you said. I meant that when I started to seek my path, I wanted that kind of old lineage medieval thing because I wanted some anti-wiccan thing. Now I know better, of course.

>>28472

> Mastering Witchcraft: A Practical Guide for Witches, Warlocks, and Covens by Paul Huson

> Nocturnal Witchcraft by Konstantinos

note: that book is good mainly for meditation material. Otherwise its quite eclectic and not so good.

> Treading the Mill: Practical Craft Working in Modern Traditional Witchcraft by Nigel G. Pearson

>The Horn of Evenwood by Robin Artisson

note that these are all beginner level books.

>>28480
For the record, grimoire translates from a word that loosely means 'grammar'. Like a dictionary of magic. The grimoire tradition is based upon the genius, or spirit of the book subtly working with you as you practice. If you watch some people who interview Mark, he mentions he consecrates each copy individually, "some I am almost jealous of because of the gift Hevate bestows upon the book, others are almost like a curse". The genius in my books whooped my ass…

The pdfs are fine for working though, but if you want to cross the threshold from initiate to adept, (within this particular tradition) I suggest grabbing a copy of the scorpion god before it sells out. That book is downright insane… and he's not making a pdf of it.

Having said that, fully practicing the queen of hell and the Lucifer book can occupy you with a year or more of work, depending on how fast you take it. As you said, it also gives a good feel for the current.

A final note; you're going to have to draw blood, and a decent amount of it to follow this tradition through. That's a key element of this tradition being able to smash worldviews. The way the rites are empowered could theoretically be preformed at a Sabbatic mass, but for the new initiate, a physical working with blood will raise some very potent energies. Best of luck.

>>28489

I already have both Scorpion God and The Altar of Sacrifice. When I saw that they were still available I instantly bought both of them despite my let's say less fortunate financial situation. In the end, I feel like it is a worthy investement.

Seeing how I am practically complete neophyte with anything magical, I cannot say anything about the qualities the books have for me except that I usually read at night and sleep with the book next to me in my bed and while doing that with Altar of Sacrifice I have had some very strange dreams indeed. Nothing to be scared of but more than that, interesting phenomenon.

I am fine with drawing blood. Taking chance of sounding like some angsty wangsty teenager, I have been quite obsessed with self-harm/bleeding, not as some misquided solace from mental health issues but due to the taboo and sexual aspect of it, plus the fact that I just love how it feels and looks.

Anyway, there is no way I will yet work any of smiths works. I have been planning to buying Temple of Hekate by Tara Sanchez first and seeing the basic circle casting and other beginner materials in that work and going from there. I am completely comfortable taking things slow and making sure that I know what I am getting myself into before diving head first into the deep waters.

>>28490
A cast circle is simply a space. Some people would draw a circle of chalk. Others have a sacred area with a platform, rug, or other divider. Personally, I just draw a circle in the dirt with my sword (outside only lol) or create a circle on higher planes. The circle is a space conjoining the physical and subtle planes, and could theoretically be seen as a placebo. In practice, you will learn firsthand about the circle, and will see your circle manifest differently depending on what you are doing. A common one is inscence smoke going around the cast circle instead of up, or a nigh-hallucinogenic state while being in the circle.

>>28491

Yeah, I understand this. I am just a person who has need for 'hands on' explanation on such things and as such, I feel comfortable at first doing a circle 'by book' at first and seeing how it goes and based on those expiriences, moving foward. I simply feel this as a comfortable starting point from which to move foward.

>>28469
>personal power
Read Atkinsons Personal Power book. Get back to me after 1505 pages.

>>28496

I don't have the time for that goddamit, I'm not even a NEET

>>28497
It is what it is and it has the price to pay. Damn fine book, well worth it.

Don't be a wageslave, though, bro. Don't waste more time than you have to.

>>28498

I was a neet for a while but right now I've only got a few years until the government stop paying for further education so I'm kinda obliged. I plan on studying the philosophy of sanity; relating the occult and mental health, how sanity changes through the ages and most importantly where its headed. This is mostly spurred on by being sectioned for practising magic.

I will look into the book but I doubt I'll be able to seriously read it until summer.

>>28502
If you feel like that's what will get you forward, by all means. Being a neet for too long is quite depowering in a sense.

>sectioned for practising magic
To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Keep Silent. How did people ever find out it?

>>28506

I was channeling two opposing good and evil entities in a trance state. I didn't think my parents could hear me.

Another entity stepped in and said "stop, they can hear you", but I didn't listen.

>>28506

Obviously I kept my mouth shut about the occult while in hospital, as well as about anything that would make me seem crazy. I also acted sane and reasonable the entire time only going into willed trance to perform magic which had stroner results than normal.

Still stayed there for 6 months.

I put a death curse on the head psychiatrist and the next day there was a dead dove outside the dining room window.

There were blood trails from where it crawled from out of sight to directly in sight of the window.

These days thanks to medication I can no longer go into trance at will, have lost guides, visions, magnetism, charm, enthesuaism for life, personal energy and power etc

I would very much like to procure a gun and shoot up the place.

>>28497
Your initial post states that this is a traditional witchcraft thread.

You spurned pagan re-constructionist practices which is the closest to "pre-Christian European tantra" you are going to get.

Real witchcraft as recorded in the medieval era going back into the mists of time involved sympathetic magick, herbology etc, but you are far advanced for that.

You mention terms from kabbalah yet dislike Wicca which is mainly criticized for being very syncretic with ritual magick and lacks providence.

>Chaos magic is basic introductory shit, which I tend to frown upon for its lack of foundation in higher esoterica.

Chaos magic is the nuts and bolts of magical operations without fluff or appeal to ancient texts of dubious authenticity. It is the bones, muscles and nerves over which the skins and collagen (magical paradigm) rests. Suitable skin is vital for it to work, for the metaconciouness to "buy" the ritual, but a fundamental understanding of how these things work is very useful, it allows for greater versatility.

>Funny, I don't remember claiming any lineage whatsoever…

The term traditional implies a tradition which is passed down, if the chain is broken or obscured what is left is a mongrel or pure fabrication. What is the Spainish/Portugese witchcraft practice you were initiated into?


This has turned into a general LHP thread which is expected since piecing together any sort of legitimate left-hand path tantric practice going back into the pre-Christian era of Europe is very difficult if not impossible (especially if you toss out all the Greece-Roman stuff).

The Semites had some pretty dark entities to work with if you want to extend the frame of reference. In terms of the Egyptians, most practices that we know of were undertaken by the priestly class, heavily regimented and orchestrated in a very Right Hand Path manner. Serious solemn rituals to ensure that the Kingdom of the God-King remained intact, that the Nile Flooded, general assurances that the world maintains its order.

>>30459
Addendum:

Outside of the West there are practices which would be called witchcraft. I would not call shamanism witchcraft as such since it is mainly spirit travels for healing, insight or exorcism, the opposite of malevolent activities.

Evil witchdoctors such as those who practice in places like Africa/The Caribbean/Latin America are something else entirely. A lot of their rituals are blood sacrifice based, be it an animal or for more powerful operations people.

This magick is amoral, but is often used for malevolent purposes. Virgin children are particularly potent as are Albinos. African warlords will often have tailsmens made of the hands and teeth of children and Albinos are often abducted and killed so the witchdoctor can use the body parts or sell it on. The witchdoctors practice of being possessed by the dead or demons is very similar to reports of Norse Seidr, where the spirit requires a body to invoke itself and instill power or operate.

I am not sure what sources are ideal for seeking out these practices, aside from initiation from a practitioner, there are anthropological texts for a basic overview, it may be easiest to get involved with a syncretic Afro-Witch-Catholic group (which are pretty edgy by Christian standards but white hat by dark practitioners). They engage in drumming/drinking/idolatry rituals combining veneration of the saints with African spirits in places such as Brazil.

>>30461
Witchcraft is also a significant part of Melanesian culture (Papua New Guinea etc). Practices of cannibalism to consume the power and spirit of enemies is particularly grizzly.