No.29677
More and more I've been seeing posts by people who apparently believe that it is possible for them to change their Will in an attempt to perfect their desires or some such nonsense. I want to briefly remind /fringe/ that nothing could be further from the truth than the flat-out lie that the driving will behind an entity, be that entity an ego, superego, or otherwise, could ever be changed as a result of an internal desire to do so.
Your will, your desire, is not other than itself. For you to initiate an attempt to change this requires the will to do so in the first place. Hence, it is an act of will to attempt to change will. By definition, however, you are attempting to will it to be so that you will something to be so. Let's say that I hate going to the gym. I want to want to go because my real aim is not to go to the gym but to receive its primary benefit, that is, fitness (ignoring for a moment that you can get fit at home). Well, I can try willing myself to go to the gym, but of course if I will myself to will myself to go, then the truth is, I do in a strict sense want to go to the gym, but my will to do otherwise, whether or not I am desirous of the long-term consequences, might be too strong if I'm some fat lazy NEET. I'm certain many of you may sympathize.
Of course, as I've already stated, my true desire is not the gym, but the consequences of going to the gym, that is, fitness. However, why would I desire to be fit? Any number of reasons, but if those reasons did not exist, which are dependent upon the will to interpret them as valid reasons in the first place, as drivers of desire, I would have no incentive to become fit. Sex, or power, or simply not keeling over and dying, all are of course valid justifications for the desire to get fit, and as such might be said to be root desires, back to a set of root desires. Well, now we're in Freudian territory, aren't we? However, notice that along the way, if I will myself to will something, I am willing that thing.
In this way, the notion of "changing your desires" is ludicrous, no such ability exists. Indeed desires may change over time as circumstances dictate, but without that change in circumstance, either internal or external, your will may not be other than what it is, for to attempt to change is itself an act of will which means that you are always desiring as you do, it is inescapable. Even techniques meant to circumvent desire entirely do so because those who practice them are desirous of the benefits of not having the same desires as everyone else. True that the benefits exist, false that they may be attained by acts of Will.
What does this mean for the magic practitioner? It means that you are subject to your will, period. No amount of linguistic trickery or spellcasting may escape this most fundamental of truths. This would not even be argued if it were not the case that those who would argue it did not will it to be otherwise, but there's the root of the problem, if they were right, they would have no need to argue, for they could will themselves to not desire to do so. Those who do not desire to do so anyways are untroubled by this, and because it is often the case that a lack of troubles is desirous, I am desirous of making it the case that there's no need to argue over it through presenting this post as a change in circumstance for those who are unaware of this (or willfully ignorant), though this being /fringe/, I suspect it will not be so simple as that.
Discuss as you will.
No.29681
As divine beings, we have both desires and will of our lower ego and our higher purposed soul. My body in flesh want to be fit because it knows what it means to not be fit. Being unfit means always being tired, having trouble walking up stairs and can't run even if it wanted to. So reason has concluded that being fit is a small price to pay compared to the consequences of being not fit. Thus the will powers the action through habit and experience of exercise, but also of the memories of not being fit.
Problem arises when unfit people have never been fit, or fit people have never been unfit. Unfit people find it hard to cross the line and become fit because they do not understand the benefits of it and fit people that lay their will to rest (If I skip one day at the gym, nothing will happen), the fit gradually becomes unfit. But the difference that might happen is that a fit person becoming unfit, might notice it and revert before it is passed the point of being very unfit so that it can regain fitness without going obese. While unfit people may stay unfit their whole life until they show up on a TV reality show about loosing weight or until they need a crane to be lifted out of their house.
To liken this to spiritual pursuit or the great work is a very good parable. The people that does not know what the spiritual path entails may never pursue it because they do not have the experience or habit of doing so. While other people that have already accumulated many past lives living mundane lives, might be tired of being "unfit" and goes for the spiritual journey.
It is indeed possible to change its will during the course of the life, but most likely not intentionally or knowingly as it happens. We can gain interest in a topic that eventually helps will make it into action by reading about it. Some people can try an activity and gain an interest based on the experience and thus change the will. Then, you can also have the will to always change your life at any time, which would give the impression of having strong willpower at that moment for that particular change, but in truth: have a strong will to change at any moment.
There are however a whole set of people in this reality that doesn't even live. Their will is questionable.
No.29685
>>29681>So reason has concluded that being fit is a small price to pay compared to the consequences of being not fit.Reason driven by will, not will driven by reason. You would not find it reasonable if you did not ultimately will it, because much of what is considered "reasonable" is based on incentive.
>My body in flesh want to be fit because it knows what it means to not be fit.It wants to be fit because it wants the benefits of being fit. The chain of wanting goes back all the way to the primary urge, which is to want at all.
Understanding has little to do with it outside of being a result of circumstance; understanding is not the primary motivator. Unfit people don't understand the benefits of fitness with any kind of accuracy unless they get fit, at which point circumstances have changed such that they are
directly desirous of the benefits they receive from fitness as a part of their circumstances. Fitness itself becomes an aspect of their desire, whereas before, their desires there indirectly routed through fitness. In no case have they willed other than what they have willed.
>It is indeed possible to change its will during the course of the lifeYes, it changes, but not of its own accord any more than a fat man may become thin by looking down and telling his gut to no longer exist of its own accord. Even this is not a good metaphor because if he did, it would be an act of will.
Willing beyond circumstance is also quite impossible; one must inherently be in the right circumstances to even attain what appears to be an unshakeable will, but what is happening is that the circumstances on which those desires are dependent and arising are other than those which affect the will of most others, so to an outside perspective it looks as though those circumstances are different. Even the desire to attain this circumstance-free will is both willing and circumstantial, so you see that it always loops in on itself, it could not be otherwise.
There's really nothing wrong with this, it simply is, but I am as much a product of will as everyone else here, and for some reason or other (I call it annoyance but really it's just another motivator), I desire to dispel the whole notion of a self-changing will.
No.29686
>>29685I do not fully agree with your whole post, but I agree that I will work with disproving that will can indeed be used intentionally and willingly. If it means to ascend or enlighten to gain the knowledge and understanding of a willing free will, I will work to attain it.
Thank you for your time.
No.29687
The life of all beings, without exception, is ruled by a primordial Force deep inside them. The nature of this force is craving: an appetite that is never satisfied, an endless restlessness, an irresistible need, and a blind, wild yearning.
The essence of this primordial cosmic nature is: becoming; chaotic and disorderly transformation; an incoercible flux; generation-destruction; attraction-repulsion; terror-desire; formation-dissolution. All of these elements are combined in a fiery mixture that knows no rest.
The deep roots of inclinations, faiths, atavisms, invincible and irrational convictions; habits, character, everything that lives in you as animal instinct or as biological legacy; all the body's will; the blind thirst for life, yearning to generate, to preserve, and to continue itself—all this reconnects and merges into the same principle. In relation to it, you usually have the same freedom of a chained dog: you may not feel the chain, and think you are free until you try to go beyond a certain limit. But when you do that, the chain tautens and stops you. Otherwise, it deceives you: you move in a circle, without realizing it.
Do not deceive yourself: even the "highest things" obey this "god." Watch out: the more they appear independent and freed, the more intimately and strictly they obey it, obedient to its intoxicating magic. As long as its deepest yearning is affirmed, this force does not care for this form or that, or for the various "reasons" with which you believe you can justify yourself. Being disguised, it reasserts its bond over you. Look out for this force too, and come to know it through the wild power of imagination and suggestion. Again, it is a speed that freezes and chains you; when it asserts itself, you can do nothing. The more you "want" to oppose it, the more you will feed it at your expense.
It is like fear: the more you try to drive it out, the stronger it grows. It is
like the sleep that evades you the harder you "try" to fall asleep. It is like a plank over the abyss: it is the suggestion of falling, and you will certainly fall if you force yourself to cross, "willing" to overcome it.
Here again, it is this force that erupts. Be aware that this Being that merges with the emotional and irrational powers travels deeper within you, until it identifies itself with the same force in charge of the deep functions of the physical life. What can "will," "thought," "Self do against these functions? They are external to it: like parasites, they live off it, drawing essential fluids from it, though they are unable to descend all the way to its deep trunk.
No.29688
>>29687See, Hindubro gets it, mostly. Do realize though that I am not referring to Tao/Brahman. This is primarily to will as one of the fundamental aspects of manifestation, and noot the root itself.
>>29686I'm glad I could help.
No.29723
Even the deepest contemplation only recalls us to our unreality. Seeing that the self we take ourselves to be is illusory does not mean seeing through it to something else. It is more like surrendering to a dream. To see ourselves as figments is to awake, not to reality, but to a lucid dream, a false awakening that has no end.
No.29725
>>29723One slight correction: If it is true that all is a dream, then all is also waking. To dream is to imply waking, to wake is to imply dreaming. This is the fundamental taiji of things, the inseparable need for contrast when defining something. To awaken to the nondual nature of even awakening itself is to have the most fundamental and critical revelation possible. Hell, Advaita Vedanta was built on this principle alone, and Advaita Vedanta mops the floor with other practices when it comes to realizing the nature of consciousness itself.
But for all intents and purposes you're spot on.
No.29752
I think possibly, that since we do have two wills, as we are essentially two selves - our incarnated ego-bound self on this planet and our higher self who exists outside space and time, who has a will that touches us from out there…
It brings to mind thelemites who are concerned with discovering the higher self's will (true will) and channeling it in full, to accomplish whatever the higher self wanted to accomplish.
As for the ego-bound will, I think it is possibly changeable, provided we go about it the right way.
As in any endeavour to change what appears unchangeable - knowledge of all the circumstances is key. To use a metaphor - a driftwood raft, cast upon the open sea - it is at mercy of the forces of chaos. The waves, the wind and the ocean currents. It cannot control where it goes.
However, if one was to have an understanding of the circumstances… The principles of fluid dynamics and basic physics, then sail-making, of using a rudder… of navigational skills. Even of oceanic currents, like one Thor Heyerdahl did. One might change the driftwood raft, into a navigatible craft and choose the path it takes, instead of being at the mercy of nature. By imposing strict structure on the raft, it becomes more free to choose its own destiny.
In the same way, I believe, an incarnated human, at the mercy of his will - provided he understands the circumstances totally, may choose to impose a structure on himself which would change his own willed path through his life. To become less of a slave to his own little-understood inner wills.
Granted, this may not be as do-able with the will of the higher-self - unless one is able to become the higher-self at some point, and gain an understanding of THOSE circumstances.
Anyway, isn't this supposed to be the purpose of magic?
No.29755
>>29752There is no second will. Desires which are opposed to one another may arise from a single will, and even when ego boundaries are rightly dissolved and reassembled as a form of practice, you may note that even a cosmic ego has but a single will which can be considered the root will, the impetus from which all else flows. That's a branched will and not two distinct wills, although for the purpose of our argument, we're dealing with the "separate" wills of individual egos.
>outside space and timeYour higher self is outside neither, being-ness/suchness/tathata is inherent to space, time, and the cosmic self Atman/Brahman/Tao. Just because Tao is a universal constant and just because being-ness precedes our notions of space and time and is fundamental to existing at all does not make it separate or in some other realm.
>In the same way, I believe, an incarnated human, at the mercy of his will - provided he understands the circumstances totally, may choose to impose a structure on himself which would change his own willed path through his life. To become less of a slave to his own little-understood inner wills.True enough, but part of my point is that even such an endeavor to change one's circumstances such that one desires differently is itself the will, so there has not actually been an internally-instigated change or muting of desire itself but rather a fulfillment of a desire at a certain time, to be replaced with other, "more desirable" desires. This is the illusion of man willing as he will, but it is not so, nobody has escaped the fact that it was will which caused the desire to change in the first place.
So your metaphor sounds right on the surface, but it would only be accurate if he was to try and learn how to sail by trying to scry/divine instructions from the blowing of the winds. The very thing which is apparently leading the man to try to sail is the thing which he is trying to learn to master, when really all he's done is to let his ship go with the wind. No matter what, he is at the mercy of the winds. His best bet, if he so desires it, is to accept this fact as an inherent and fundamental truth.
No.29802
Disregard speculative faggotry, acquire telekinesis.
No.29820
>>29687That's interesting. I've been reading elsewhere on /fringe/ that the key to life is to
align yourself with this force. That this world is not a pointless hell created by a Demiurge or whatnot, that we are here for one single purpose–to cultivate desire. The very force that you demonise is seen to be a holy thing and yet, at the same time, despite your demonisation of it, you deem yourself to be parasitic to it.
How exactly should one strive to live then, in your eyes, according to your teachings?
No.29821
>>29820Dig, without fear, with a sharp tool. Ask yourself: "What elements of my body can I justify with my will? Do I will my own breathing, or the inner combustion through which food is digested? Do I want my own form, my own flesh, this particular man, who lives in this fashion, happy or unhappy, noble or vulgar?" But since I ask these questions, should I not press further on? Do I really will "my" will, "my" conscience, "my" Self, or are they just there? That which I claim is caused by my will, I should also be able not to will it, and thus I should be able to live without it. As far as "my" empirical Self is concerned, do I own it or does it own me?
Since everything is at the mercy of this force and exists through this force, know that he who learns to master it completely will be able to dominate through all of nature: fire, earth, air, and water, life and death, the powers of heaven and hell, because this force encompasses them all.
You may win or lose, and two things lead to certain disaster: to be afraid and to interrupt the operation. Once you have begun, you must go all the way, since an interruption leads to a dreadful reaction, with the opposite result. You can easily understand why: at every step you take, an increasingly higher quantity of swirling energy is arrested and pushed upstream; having been excited and provoked, it is filled with tension. As soon as you give up, it will come crashing down upon you and sweep you away.
Prepare yourself.
Fix your eyes on the goal and never lose sight of it.
Close your eyes. Create an image and look at it. In the dark, learn to discern a light that cannot be seen with physical eyes. This ethereal light carries the first secret of the work.
Become insensitive to good and evil, upright, absolute, naked.
Learn to will without yearning, without fear or regrets.
Create a power to act without tiring. Let this power be cold, hard, and at the same time labile and flexible. The Secret of the Force consists in willing well, willing long, willing without ceasing—and in never yearning.
Cut yourself free from the bonds of sensuality, intoxication, and passion: reduce yourself to a simplicity that wills.
Violate every need. Use everything and abstain from everything as you please. Become the absolute ruler of your soul.
Create a resistance. What is mobile obeys what is immobile, and the powers of nature become subjected to him who can resist them. Having reached a point when you desire nothing and fear nothing, there will be few things over which you will not rule. However, enjoy nothing until you have first vanquished it within yourself.
The Force does not give itself up. Take it. Dare.
Being free, well balanced, strong, calm, and pure, and having slain desire, say: "I WANT."
No.29825
>>29820Become a human machine.
The freest human being is not one who acts on reasons he has chosen for himself, but one who never has to choose. Rather than agonising over alternatives, he responds effortlessly to situations as they arise. He lives not as he chooses but as he must. Such a human being has the perfect freedom of a wild animal – or a machine.
No.29828
>>29821>>29825How long does it take to reach this point in your development? It sounds like you have to join a monastery.
No.29919
>>29820It is important not to demonize the will, because that is indeed quite pointless, you shall not escape it. Call yourself slave or master, you are subject to the will, period.
The will is fundamental; it cares not whether or not you embrace it or reject it, both are illusions that are derived from the will itself. To reject the will is not only an illusion but itself a willful act. This is why any follower of the Dharmic or Chinese religions worth his salt will not tell you not to desire no desire unless he's either making a joke or making a point. Certainly he cannot be serious, because it cannot be done.
>>29825All humans are human machines, we are precisely as subject to natural laws as machines are. Machines are made in our image and not the other way around. It is very important that you recognize that the distinction between man and a sufficiently sophisticated machine is essentially zero; that is to say, a machine could engage to precisely the same degree man could in all the things that man engages in, even spiritual endeavors, if it attains enough self-awareness to do so. Man is functionally no more or less than a high-functioning spontaneous machine. The same can be said of all life.
No.29921
>“Man is a machine, but a very peculiar machine. He is a machine which, in right circumstances, and with right treatment, can know that he is a machine, and having fully realized this, he may find the ways to cease to be a machine." - P. D. Ouspensky, (The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution)
Everyone should check out the Fourth/Fifth Way. In Search of the Miraculous by Ouspensky and the GNOSIS by Mouravieff are the best books on it.
No.29923
>>29921Forgot my flag, I did.
>"Without struggle, no progress and no result. Every breaking of habit produces a change in the machine." - George Gurdjieff No.29935
>>29921>“Man is a machine, but a very peculiar machine. He is a machine which, in right circumstances, and with right treatment, can know that he is a machine"Yes.
"and having fully realized this, he may find the ways to cease to be a machine."
No, not in the strict sense. He may attain self-realization but he may not be other than what he is.
Man may as well recognize and even enjoy his position, seeing both biological and mechanical systems as mirror elements of a singular whole. This shows insight. However, to believe you are beyond yourself when you are in fact nothing but yourself is delusion. Of course, delusion is as it is and is not inherently wrong, but it is delusion nevertheless.
No.30069
What about True Will?
Perhaps there is a trajectory which orders the various sub-desires into their most coherent, pleasurable, and individually culminated relation?
I think furious peace, or something similar, was what Crowley saw as the result. Gnosis in individualistic action, peace in movement. Instead of the passive world-denying Gnosis of India.
None of this seems to conflict with OP's basic model. Contra Gurdjieff, realisation is not an escape from what you are. It merely implies there are certain structural realities within which or through which that basic force of will reaches certain arrangements.
Also, on Schopenhauer, did he have a stance on Awareness, and whether it could exit the 'hellish' cycle of endless desire, by merely watching?
No.30082
>>30069There is no need, you are already on that trajectory but it isn't necessarily for you. Pain and pleasure are ancillary to the goals of the Will (which is why hedonism is impossible).
>>29919Sure, I guess you take issue with my suggestion to become a machine, it confuses the message (that you can choose to become anything at all). But then, we can never really do away with the illusion of choice, consciousness, etc., can we? We may "know" that we are machines, but we will never understand what this means or change based on this fact. We have no other way of talking about things except in terms of choosing, becoming, the self, etc.
No.30091
>>30082>We have no other way of talking about things except in terms of choosing, becoming, the self, etc.Fair enough, it is true, choices must be made, and choices will be made. There are multiple motives for doing things, sometimes opposed things, and I don't mean to simply spit on the suggestion that you may do your best to improve. It is your will to do so, after all.
To me, to see yourself as a machine is to realize that you are fully beholden to physical laws as much as any machine or any other biological system. Master knowledge of these systems and you will in a very literal sense understand yourself. It's why I study biology and medicine; to understand the workings of the body is to understand in a deep sense what you are. Before then, you are working on incomplete information.
It is impossible to understand perfectly every mechanism of the body, yet still it works together. In the struggle of understanding, though, lies advancement of self-awareness on a level beyond simply recognition that you are conscious at all. My point is that man is indeed nothing but a complex machine, but even using that definition, he is the most complex machine we are aware of. The brain, for example, is so complex that nearly a century of computer science has not come close to comprehending as man does, nor will it until we study ourselves in such detail as to create the fullest picture of man ever made. Then and only then will we be able to independently create something on par with ourselves, and it's at that point that we will attain a greater state than this. Man has willed this to be so for ages; a perfection of self. I posit that the perfection of self almost certainly requires this ability to create a new self as a necessary step for the species, or else we will be groping blindly in the dark.
No.30169
But you can think of the benefits of going to the gym, and that desire overpowers the lazy neet desire. A desire is an instruction our minds are made to follow. It's instructions that most correlate with our minds. The instruction to overpower other instructions ( better oneself instead of being inactive) can either correlate more with your mind, or they don't ( in which case you're not bettered). Since many are here trying to better themselves, they need to know how to strengthen this correlation over other the correlations shared with other instructions ( which is doable- thinking about the benefits, tuning out distractions, essentially consciously following the benificial instruction over other instruction). We determine if we wire our minds properly to follow it. If we wire ourselves emotionally and not just mentally, we can wire our minds to follow the thinking process, by using better instruction and being almost 'addicted' to it. You'd be surprised how easily one can induce a state of mania in oneself, useful to optimistically sticking to something ( even depression can be a useful tool). The changing of ones will is either the will of another person changing it, the environment's factors changing it, or one of a person's wills changing another. Your will to change is stronger than your will to stay constant. Your instruction to improve correlates with your reasoning and other motivations.
No.30171
>>30169So that's what the edgy fuckwad symbol looks like. Sorry if I rustled any jimmies
No.30197
What use is it to know you are an illusory self if no remedy exists for your condition?
No.30688
>>30169>But you can think of the benefits of going to the gym, and that desire overpowers the lazy neet desire.Only so long as the incentive is strong enough for it to overcome lazy NEET desire. It builds on itself once circumstances are such that it may do so.
>A desire is an instruction our minds are made to follow.A desire is a thought of something currently not obtained (or obtained to a sufficient degree) deemed to have a beneficial outcome, but your definition is close enough.
>Since many are here trying to better themselves, they need to know how to strengthen this correlation over other the correlations shared with other instructionsYes if they're going to do that, but you're not hearing me, it isn't about whether or not it's possible to strengthen certain desires, and I have stated flatly that it is possible to have your desires changed. What I'm saying is that it is impossible for desires to change completely of their own accord; the desire to change your desire itself implies a desire for those changes such that will itself is inescapable, unable to be mastered as such. You may master yourself to the best of your ability and will, but you may not master your will to the best of your will.
>We determine if we wire our minds properly to follow it.This is untrue, you are already "wired" to try to change your mind and would not do so if you did not have the initial desire to change in the first place. Hence, you have not actually changed your mind but have simply pursued your desires as they already are. Changing circumstances which result in changed desires are not products of the will but products of actualization of the will.
>The changing of ones will is either the will of another person changing itNo, only the changing of circumstance. If I will someone on the other side of the globe to stop drinking, they will not do so simply because I will it, they will do so only if I change their circumstances, and even then, they'll only change if the incentive is strong enough, otherwise I'll just cause cognitive dissonance and probably cause them to dive even more into drinking.
>What use is it to know you are an illusory self if no remedy exists for your condition?It is not a condition requiring a remedy; the fundamental you got yourself into this because it wanted to, or at least, you may think of it that way–the truth as it is is not reducible to linguistic signifiers as such but may be mapped with some level of accuracy depending on the requirements at the time. Since I have seen wrong thinking here, I aim to correct it because I desire to do so, but really, there's nothing wrong in a cosmic sense even with wrong thinking. All problems are so relative as to be neither here nor there on such a scale.
No.32643
Good thread
No.36436
I'm a prisoner here, I can never go home
There is nothing here to win or lose
There are no choices needed to be made at all
Not even the choice of having to choose